Does chow mein in NYC not have noodles in it? [moved from Manhattan board]

Question

I stopped in a little Chinese take-away place on the UWS yesterday and picked up some pork chow mein. I couldn't figure out why they said it came with rice but thought well maybe everything does. Whatever. Got back to my friend's apartment and discovered it had no noodles in it. We eat Chinese alot when in NYC but mostly dim sum. The chow mein we get in SF always has noodles. Is this common or just an anomaly of that place? They did have a little bag of fried strips which I guess was the noodle equivalent. It was really good stir-fried vegetables and pork but not what I would have called chow mein. Can anyone enlighten me please?

Answer

I think the same dish that is referred to as "chow mein" on the West Coast, is known as "lo mein" on the East Coast. Stir fried soft noodles with vegetables and meat of your choice.in a brown sauce.

Answer

The fried strips (of won ton wrappers, usually) are the NYC Chinese-Am takeaway equivalent of the tortilla chips the Mexican takeaway gives you; you didn't get them specifically because of your noodle-less chow mein. People often dunk them in the duck sauce that comes along with the packets of soy sauce and hot mustard in your bag. When they came along with my deliveries, they usually went in the trash.

Incidentally, the "soy sauce" in those packets gets its umami from hydrolized vegetable proteins and is not actually made from fermented soy, according to Jennifer 8. Lee's book The Fortune Cookie Chronicles.

Answer

I've never actually eaten takeout style Chinese in New York, but did grow up in the area. The Chinese restaurants in southwestern Connecticut are all staffed through various agencies in Chinatown, so I would assume the dishes are done in the same style as in the city. I've never seen soft noodles in chow mein. Chow mein around here should come with thin crispy noodles. These should be a thinner style noodle than the fried wonton wrappers or the crunchy noodles that come with wonton soup, but some places will substitute the ubiquitous crunchy noodles.
According to Wikipedia, this is the Hong Kong style of chow mein, and is the standard chow mein on the East Coast.

Answer

Chow mein in New York has never had noodles, it's chicken, oil, broth, corn starch, salt, msg, bean sprouts. You can eat it without those fried noodles they give you no matter what you order.

Those places in SF serving chow mien with noodles are serving Chinese food, totally different. We are not talking about Chinese food, we are talking about Chinese-American food, which has its own nomenclature. Of course it doesn't make sense, because the customers don't know that 'mein' means noodles. So it doesn't matter what is actually in the dish. Just like Szechuan means julienned celery and carrots. Go into any Chinese-American restaurant, and the Szechuan beef will be beef in a brown gravy cooked with julienned celery and carrots. Want your vegetables cut up in chunks instead? That's Hunan style. General Tso's chicken, fortune cookies, egg foo yung (omelette in brown gravy) , yup, nothing to do with Chinese food. Crazy, huh?

Answer

I live in Toronto, and when you order chow mein, it is usually Cantonese style, with thin crispy egg noodles:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cantonese_chow_mein_by_IAN_in_Taiwan.jpg

There was a time, some 20+ years ago, where ordering chow mein might get you a plate of bean sprouts with stuff, but I haven't been surprised in a long time.

Answer

My wife is Cantonese, and this is how I understand it. Chow Mein is fried noodles. In Cantonese cooking, evidently (which is what the majority of SF restaurants are), Chow Mein is almost what Lo Mein is, but a bit more fried. On the east coast, however, Chow Mein noodles are those deep fried noodles that La Choy and others package, that are great to eat by themselves and are mixed into the glop to make what's called Chow Mein back east, which is served over rice.

Answer

c, 

the following links show Chicken Chow Mein and Chop Suey, the way it was served in most restaurants during the 50's - 80's in Cantonese and Polynesian restaurants and take-outs.....in the Greater New York/New Jersey area

Chicken Chow Mein:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://image20.webshots.com/20/7/96/5/218579605QlBeeL_fs.jpg&imgrefurl=http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1218579605059660423QlBeeL&usg=__WrGmUdXX1gEQIBSjQCJzCF40R8Q=&h=1536&w=2048&sz=224&hl=en&start=64&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=31X4GHftmfDIQM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchicken%2Bchow%2Bmein%2Bpictures%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D60%26um%3D1

Chicken Chop Suey :

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cafenilson.com/wp-content/uploads/chowmein1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cafenilson.com/2009/02/spicy-chicken-chow-mein/&usg=__3g-_PHq090Yl0DlZwm75UlgJJkI=&h=600&w=800&sz=419&hl=en&start=119&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=nIQInhbKyjFJ4M:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&
prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchicken%2Bchow%2Bmein%2Bpictures%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D100%26um%3D1

Cantonese Style:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://la.foodblogging.com/wp-content/ChowMein.jpg&imgrefurl=http://la.foodblogging.com/2005/12/15/may-mei/&usg=__KbQT29sK2SdG3hMndkD5ROI8If8=&h=300&w=400&sz=61&hl=en&start=3&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=9E8A5DKKqAxvLM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcantonese%2Bchow%2Bmein%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

Lo Mein:

http://gigihawaii.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/chang-lo-mein-a.jpg

Answer

Just to confuse matters further, the following comment by Frank D on another thread reminded me that there was another style *Cantonese Chow Mein* available on many Cantonese restaurant menus in the 60-80's that was served like picture number 1.......

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/349402#5290302

Chicken, Shrimp and Red Roast Pork

Answer

Did it look something like this?

http://www.jade3.com/chow_mein_chop_suey

As was mentioned by someone else, this is an American Chinese dish. I've only found it at one place here in Seattle and it's a restaurant that gets terrible reviews because it's so 'inauthentic'. I think American Chinese can taste glorious and has it's own time and place. When I first had this version, I couldn't stop eating until I got to the bottom of the takeout box.

Answer

Old La Chow commercial that clearly shows can of Chow Mein without noodles. Pity the 'Sad Bride.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzSYsl9sFLk&feature=related

Answer

Came across this article tonight. Explains it all.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/23/nyregion/in-search-of-chow-mein.html?pagewanted=1

Answer

I've been lurking on this thread for some time. I must say it is amusing to read the many reminiscences and arguments over "chow mein" thegloop and "lo mein" thesamething and "Chow mein" therealthing. :-) :-)

I don't recall eating "chow mein" thegloop more than 1 or 2 times and being taken aback by what I had in front of me, IIRC. I associate "chow mein" with dishes along the lines of what KTinNYC always had in NY's CT and in fact don't remember being aware that there was such a dish as what "chow mein" thegloop is described as until well into adulthood. BTW the "Cantonese pan-fried noodles" on which is ladled meats and veggies in a sauce I always knew as a dish where the noodles are said to have a "cheen heong tai" (simply transliterated Cantonese)(sort of 'fried fragrant underlayer') or just simply "heong tai".

Answer

my take on this -
on the east coast chow mein is the stir fried veggies and protein served with fried noodles and white rice on the side. and lo mein is the west coast's version of chow mein - stir fried noodles.

Answer

had to bump this thread. jeopardy made me do it

Answer

this happened to me living in the midwest. there, chow mein is the meat/veg/sauce served with fried noodles to add yourself. *lo* mein is what i here on the west coast would call *chow* mein. they told me chow mein meant fried noodles which i guess meant crispy, and lo mein meant soft.

Answer

Just happened on this thread, wanted to add the explanation my grandmother (b. 1896 in NYC) told me for the origin of chow mein. She said it started as cheap food for Chinese laborers on the transcontinental railroad. Rice was much more easily available and transported than noodles (it used less water to cook it, too) so that's what they used. Somehow that migrated to lower Manhattan by the 1910's and was the style she grew up with there. When she was in her teens and working in the garment district, she and her friends went to "the Chinese" because it was all they could afford. There was evidently some skepticism about where the protein came from, but they didn't care. To her, chow mein had to be gloopy sauce with celery, onions and maybe something cabbagey over rice, with crispy noodles on the top. And that's what we had to order when we took her to "the Chinese" on Long Island's South Shore, right up until she was in her 90's!

Answer

It is an anomaly of the entire Northeastern US. New York, Philadelphia...you know the place. Anywhere else, chow mein includes noodles. After all, "MEIN" means "NOODLES!" I don't know how the Northeast went astray on "chow mein" but if what you 
want is what's called "chow mein" everywhere else, and you are stuck 
in the Northeast, order "LO MEIN."

Answer

And just to make things more confusing, it's not unique to the Northeast, or at least it wasn't. When I was a kid in SoCal in the 60s and 70s, that's exactly the style we used to get, well, everywhere. Pork with Bean Sprouts, Onions, Celery in a translucent sauce (delicious!) - and the Crispy Noodles on the side.

God I miss it. Here in Seattle we only get the real stuff.

I think you can still get the goopy kind in a can. I may have to try it.

Answer

By now it's clear that the chow mein you got is a NYC interpretation of a dish that's quite different everywhere else. To my mom, who was born on the Lower East Side 91 years ago, and lived her first 50 years in NYC and northern NJ, your description is THE definition chow mein. She refers to it as "real Chinese food" and she's on a perpetual quest to find it. Sadly for her, it doesn't seem to exist anywhere outside the NYC area.

I can recall, as a young kid growing up in Brooklyn, getting chow mein sandwiches from a corner stand on Pitkin Avenue. Chow mein as you described, topped with crispy noodles, glopped onto a burger bun. What a treat that was!!!

Answer

Well i'm happy I found this post because I had the same experience/question. I'm accustomed to chow mein being stir fired noodles, I was recently in MD and placed an order online for delivery. Upon opening my package it was this white goopy mess with rice, I just assumed the guy got it wrong. Well I recently moved to NJ so a few days ago ordered chow mein for delivery and lo and behold it was this white looking goopy mess again with rice. I was like what the hey! the description on the menu mentioned fried noodles and I even googled chow mein and it showed what I know it to be. I guess this area just does it differently.

Answer

I posted this in a similar thread but realized that one is on a regional board...I thought I'd cross post here.

NJ hound here. I am pretty interested in this topic, as I've been trying to figure out the mystery of "chow mein" for a while.

When I was about 15 and didn't know anything about food, I flew to San Francisco to visit a friend. There, I had one of the most memorable meals of my life when he took me to a Chinese restaurant where he ordered all these exotic dishes I had never had or heard of before. The dishes: curry beef, chow fun, mapo tofu, cream of sumyunguy, and an awesome concoction of this stir fried sauce stuff over a nest of crispy noodles.

When I came back to NJ, I was able to find all of these dishes at the local Chinese takeout place, with the exception of the noodle dish. I scoured the takeout menus and found an item called "Chow Mein - w. white rice and crispy noodle" and thought aha! This must be it! So I ordered it - and it wasn't what I thought. At all.

Since then I gave up on the search until one day I went to a Chinese takeout place and saw someone eating that dish I remembered - the nest of fried noodles with the stir-fry gravy poured on top. I looked throught the menu again...and there it was - chow mein, crispy noodle. Ordered it. Nope, not the same thing.

Eventually I went back and asked what it was - they told me that dish is on the menu as "Cantonese Style Pan Fried Noodle." Mystery solved.

My interest was piqued again as I watched a documentary about General Tso's chicken where they touched on Chop Suey...I realized I had no idea what this dish was. And I read over all of the Chop Suey/Chow Mein threads on Chowhound.

So tonight I went to a very typical/representative local Chinese takeout place and ordered both. Chow Mein and Chop Suey. Here's what I got: http://imgur.com/gdDIa2A

They are almost indistinguishable visually. The one on the left is Chow Mein, the other is Chop Suey.

The differences (as far as I can see) are as following: Chow mein includes a package of crispy fried noodles (the kind they leave on your table as a snack when dining in), and chop suey has a stronger sauce that tastes closer to the typical Chinese "brown sauce." Chow mein is quite bland in comparison.

Otherwise the ingredients are identical except that at this particular location chop suey includes carrots and snow peas that's not present in the chow mein. I would not have known any of this had they not labeled the packages - they probably realize these two dishes are very similar.

This coincides with all of the other reports we've heard on east coast Chow Mein. Which is a shame because that crispy noodle with the gravy poured on top is awesome. It would be nice if that were to become a readily available staple here like west coast chow mein.

I am still confused about one thing though - is west coast chow mein a noodle stir fry? Or is it gravy poured over a bed of crispy fried noodles?

Answer

Up here, north Idaho, Chop Suey and Chow Mein are identical except that Chow Mein sits atop crispy noodles, Chop Suey is served with steamed rice on the side. "Special Chow Mein" is stir fried with the soft noodles.

Answer

There is a difference between chow mien and lo mien. I also love Shrimp chow mien and do not like lo mien because of the noodles. I live in the south and every where I have ever eaten chow mien, it's served with rice and not noodles. However on the other hand, lo mien does have noodles. I've eaten at many Chinese restaurants and this is true for most. I eat here and ask for chow mien and get a clear broth with not noodles, in NC. I went to Michigan with my husband and ordered shrimp chow mien and it was exactly the same. No noodles. I think you all are thinking of lo mien.

Answer

Whenever my niece from SF comes to Boston and we get Chinese food, she gets chow mein and is disappointed because it doesn't include noodles. I have explained a few times that what she calls chow mein, we call lo mein.

Answer

For those who don't know me, although I'm a NJ Jew, my wife is Taiwanese, I speak a smattering of Mandarin, and we've traveled pretty and eaten pretty extensively all over China and Taiwan. I haven't lived in the NJ/NY area since 1996, but, I still feel nostalgia for (some) of the Chinese food of my youth. It's with that in mind, on a recent visit to NYC, I simply had to pay a visit to Wo Hop.

I placed my order (2 egg rolls and pork lo mein). The place was jam packed with laowai (as it should be.) While waiting for my order, I used the loo. It's a tiny room, and just as I was about to use the sink a blue jacketed waiter emerged from the stall. I dropped a bit of Mandarin, offering him the opportunity to wash his hands first, and we started chatting about real Chinese food, and what NYC Chinese food actually is. He brought up the absurdity of chicken chow mein with this utter look of disgust on his face. I told him how I grew up eating it, but now I know that it's actually chop suey, and he enthusiastically agreed with me. I told him going into a restaurant, ordering chicken chow mein and being served chop suey is like ordering a hamburger and being served pizza. "Yes!!" he proclaimed. "That's it!" I feel like, for a moment, decades of confused frustration lifted off this fellow, as he communed with a laowai who actually understood the weird culinary Twilight Zone that is the NYC Chinese food.

Mr Taster

Answer

I'm an American Born Chinese born and raised in Houston. When I was a kid there weren't that many Chinese restaurants and what there were catered to Americans not Chinese. This was back in the late 60's - 70's. The Chinese food was prepared based on what was available so lots celery, broccoli, beans, carrots, and bean sprouts. All the real Chinese vegetables were grown at home. Chinese noodles were not available. What was available were already fried round patties of noodles. The stir fried chop suey would be placed on top of this crispy patty of noodles. These fried patties were imported so they were probably expensive so I'm theorizing other places thought the same thing and started to break apart the noodles and sprinkle them on top. I remember as a kid that Chinese dried goods, condiments had to be shipped in from NY or SF. On our only trip to SF as a kid, my mom bought and case of soy sauce to take home because it was so cheap in comparison. This was in 1977 I think.

We had a small grocery store and I remember that La Choy chow mein was very popular and they had the fried noodles in a separate can from the beef and veg can (they were taped to each other). It looks like they still sell La Choy too. http://www.lachoy.com/asian-cooking-products/crispy-asian-noodles


My sister ran a restaurant for many years in Miami up until about 10-15 years ago and they served chow mein like the NYC style mentioned above.

Answer

OK I have lived in LA for 5 YEARS and have searched high and low for NEW YORK CHOW MEIN... I am into getting into a debate about what CHOW MEIN is or why some people say it is Chop Suey (which it is not the same) and why out west here in CA LoMein is considered Chow Mein...

Ive tried every suggestion in Chowhound to no avail... 


In LA - Fus Palace on the west side has NY chow mein... However it isnt good.. and the B health rating for several months has kept me away....

But THIS PLACE has THE BEST NY Chow Mein... AND wonton soup.. AND actual FRIED RICE like old school...

That place is.... CHINA GARDEN in Woodland Hills

If you are in LA and crave old school NY chow mein this is your answer

Answer

When I went to Mee on 1st Avenue recently (officially "The Original Mee Noodle Shop & Grill") I noticed that they listed a version of chow mein with noodles, and a version without. Since they don't have a website, here's what I could find on Seamless.com

Classic Chow Mein (no noodles)
Pork Chow Mein
$7.00+

Shrimp Chow Mein
$7.00+

etc. etc.

But above it there was the noodle version:

Cantonese Chow Mein
Pan-Fried Noodles with Vegetables
$10.25

Double fried noodles.
Pan-Fried Noodles with Chicken
$11.25

etc. etc.

Answer

Good news - the issue has now been resolved!!! A Chinese restaurant sprouted up in my neck of the woods without being noticed until today. Stopped by for a menu - opened it up - lo and behold, enlightenment...in print ;)

Now I remember why I love Lo Mein (soft noodle) and am not fond of Chow Mein (fried noodle). Can't argue with the China King.

Answer

Where I am from in Minnesota Chow Mein was pork, celery and sauce. We then got dry, thin, round chow mein noodles to integrate ourselves.

Answer

I had the most confusing dinner tonight. I haven’t had chowmein in a while and ordered it tonight. With chicken. What came was some veggies and chicken and NO noodles. I have never met a chowmein with no noodles. And saucy too! 

Confused in Denver

Answer

Here in Nova Scotia all Chinese takeouts have the same Chow Mein as the OP had unknowingly ordered. Bean sprouts, celery, onion, bok choy, in a soy and cornstarchy sauce, with the crispy little deepfried noodle things. It’s what we grew up knowing Chow Mein to be. Not sure about elsewhere but here Chinese takeouts usually have 12-14 different combination plates on the menu with different items and if you get one with chicken chow Mein you are getting getting this style chow Mein. Also on the menu is Cantonese style chow Mein which has stirfried noddles as the OP said he is used to having and is more expensive and not as popular here I’m guessing because it’s not in any combination plates, which are the biggest sellers here vs ordering separate dishes. We also have Lo Mein which is essentially Cantonese chowmein but instead of the noodles being stirfried they are boiled and soft. I’ve included two photos, both are the same Chow Mein except one has the little crispy deep fried noodles on it.

Answer

No noodles in Chow Mein in NY or NJ. They often will tell you "this has no noodles, you know?". It is my favorite go-to chinese dish. Made w sliced white chicken, (or whatever meat you choose), celery, onion, bean sprouts, chinese cabbage in a "white sauce". Served with white or brown rice. Delish!

Answer

While chow mein on the west coast is always made with noodles in NYC it is customary to add a package of fried chow mein noodles to the dish yourself

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