no more free water?
Hi there,
I just went to Lee's Sandwiches for lunch here in SF on Larkin and got my usual #6. When my sandwich was ready, I retrieved it from the counter and asked for my usual glass of tap water. I was greeted with a '...we no longer give out free water...'
They have plenty of drinks to buy, but I've been getting free tap water for more than a year. I can see if I didn't order any food, then maybe they would shut me out, but this just felt wrong in so many ways.
I then thought to myself, is it legal for a eating establishment to decline free tap water to its customers?
Your thoughts?
Thanks,
--Chris
sfindie
Jul 09, 2008 01:00PM
The only law I know of regarding water is that in SF and some other places around here it's illegal to serve it unless the customer requests it. (They passed that the last the time the supply was inadequate to meet the demand created by decades of unbridled development.)
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I know that some patrons have confused this law with an actual prohibition on serving free water, so I could see where an uninformed restaurant could reach the same conclusion. However, there is no Constitutional right to free water, either.
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AFAIK that "law" is an urban legend. In California, a utility is permitted to implement such a regulation as part of a mandatory rationing scheme, but SF is currently under voluntary conservation measures, not mandatory rationing. The East Bay MUD is going to mandatory rationing on August 1, but will only be "encouraging" restaurants to serve water only on request. Same with a few other places in NorCal.
As to the OP--given that SF is currently under a National Weather Service "excessive heat watch," it's may be legal, but it's incredibly foolish for a restaurant owner to refuse to serve tap water to a customer. A little dehydration, a little heat stroke, a little litigation. Dixie cups are cheap.
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If it were an urban legend, you wouldn't see me repeating it. It was adopted by the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission in 1977:
The Code of the City of San Francisco, California
ARTICLE 9: MISCELLANEOUS CONDUCT REGULATIONS
SEC. 603.1. REGULATIONS IN THE USE OF WATER.
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, association, corporation, partnership or organization of any kind, with respect to water provided directly from the San Francisco Water Department through its facilities to ... (g) Serve water to a customer in a restaurant unless specifically requested by such customer.
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I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.
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I think they could legally charge you for a cup if they wanted.
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yeah, i would have accepted that i guess, but she didn't offer it as an option and i guess i was too put off by the miff that i didn't offer to buy a cup either. ho-hum.
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I've seen many signs (generally in pizza parlors) where they say the water is free but there's a charge for the cup.
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When I get water at Lee's, I just grab a cup from the coffee area and fill it up at the soda fountain (there's a button for tap water). No one ever notices/comments and I never ask.
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whoa, nice one! you mean the Lee's Sandwiches on Larkin and not Lee's Deli (scattered all over SF), correct? if so, that rules. thanks for the tip.
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oops - you're right. Was channeling the ever ubiquitous Lee's Deli. Sorry for any confusion.
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It's completely ridiculous. My reply to, "We no longer give out free water" would be along the lines of, "All right, then I no longer buy sandwiches at Lee's." And they probably wouldn't care, but I'd feel good about it.
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It's not completely ridiculous. They are trying to cut costs as all other businesses do. You are welcome of course to get a $6 sandwich from another vendor.
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Just duck into a Starbucks, don't they have a policy of offering free water?
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Starbucks, I think, only gives a thimble size free water unless you buy something there, then they'll give you a bigger one. I was approached one day by a teenager who explained it to me and asked if I would request a free large water with my latte and give it to him. I obliged, but it was weird.
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This does sound weird.
The only thing to add is California is in a drought (officially declared) and water rationing and/or mandatory reduced use in some counties has already begun.
Don't know what laws apply, legalities or what but it might add some context...or not.
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I ws just in here recently for the first time. I think I gave the woman at the counter a bit of a sour look when she refused me water, and she explained that it was too expensive for them to pay for the cups of free water. This is their explanation for whatever it's worth
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Yes, I was thinking of drought, too. I remember around 1990 or so when California was in the midst of a drought. Homes and businesses (except for places like hospitals) were levied fines if they used more than a certain amount of water. People had to take shorter showers and let their lawns go brown. To the point of the original post, it was not uncommon for restaurants to charge for a simple glass of tap water in an effort to counter the inevitable fees.
I've been to Lee's on Larkin, and things are pretty darn cheap, so I would imagine that they are operating on a rather tight profit margin. Water isn't free, the soda machine isn't free, the power to run it isn't free, the cup itself isn't free (whether we're talking about the disposable kind, or the labor and power and water to wash a reusable one). So while I feel a simple glass of tapwater for free is a reasonable courtesy, I don't expect it.
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The margin profit margin factor is real. Any place serving sandwiches at that price point, including the $2 buck ones (although there's more), probably has the attitude that things are cheap enough.
My guess is Lee's is experiencing what every other place is experiencing -- higher costs due to gas, employee health care in SF -- but hasn't raised prices yet, but are getting jumpy.
Of course this is bad PR. They should just raise the prices like every other place and give the water away if asked.
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Vote with your feet--there are much better Vietnamese sandwich places nearby (as well as American sandwich ones) who'll provide free water.
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No restaurant is obligated to give you free water. Most do as a matter of course, but there is a major drought in CA. We had the same situation here on the east coast several years back, and several restaurants at the beach began charging for water because the cost to them had gone up sharply.
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http://www.chowhound.com/topics/446259
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/414789
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One more thought (maybe already mentioned) - try bringing your own empty water bottle in and asking them to fill it up.
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I was thinking the same thing. I also wonder if the Lee's in Phoenix is doing the same thing. I usually order something though (iced coffee - yum) if eating in, so I guess I never noticed one way or the other.
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Well, Lee's here is still giving out water. In fact, they had a whole tray of filled water cups ready to go in case anyone asked. On the other hand, they still aren't serving tomatoes on the "Euro" sandwiches. Wish they had sliced pickles to go on or something. :)
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I do not think a business has any legal obligation to give free water to a customer. Water, even tap water costs the business money, as well as the cup it is served in.
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I think the US is the only place left that gives out free water. I've heard from my globe trotting co-workers that free water is the one amenity they miss when dining abroad. I recall my last trip to Dublin (many years ago) where when we asked for water, we were presented with Evian. We asked about tap and were told it wasn't an option.
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In the UK, the licensing of pubs includes the requirement that they provide free water upon request. Technically, if a pub owner lives on the premises, he is required to provide water even when the pub is closed. This all goes back several hundred years, IIRC, and the statute is still on the books, but is likely never actually enforced.
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I haven't had much troubles getting free water in European countries recently. The only places where I've found tap water not to be available are countries where the water is unsafe to drink.
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The Quizno's by me ended giving out free water cups a while back. They've got a self-serve drink area located in a way that the employees can't see what's happening with the soda and iced tea dispensors, and they were having too many problems with patrons filling up their 'water' cups with Coke or tea instead.
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Might be time that .02 cents plain is brought back.
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The only thing I've seen is cup charges of around $.05-.25, which I think is reasonable. Forcing people to buy bottled water is another story.
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I'm confused. Short of blackmail, how would anyone be forced to buy anything?
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Well, gosh, then I guess this recession we won't be drinking the Depression special, which was a Pine Float (glass of water and a toothpick). People would order this so they could sit indoors at a table.
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HA! Try getting free tap water at any given resto in Germany. Good luck with that one. Be prepared to argue with the waiter, even if you've ordered a glass of wine as well...
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The two years I lived in Germany I never had any problems when asking for tap water.
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Wow. Well, consider yourself lucky then, as it certainly can't be expected -- save the Italian-style cafés where one gets water with espresso.
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No, I can't imagine I had two straight years of just luck. I wonder if it's a regional thing? The closest thing to trouble I got in Munich was the waiter making sure I knew that there would be no carbonation in the water (oy, yes, that was exactly the idea).
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I don't think it's just luck. In the past year I've lived in the UK, and visited various areas of France, Italy, Netherlands, Germany, Slovenia, Denmark, and Sweden and had very little problems ordering tap water. I did not typically go to any high-end restaurants.
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Maybe they're more prone to give you tap water because they know Americans are used to it. I'm not saying I can NEVER get tap water at a restaurant, but one often gets a raised eyebrow along with it -- because they'd much rather SELL you water.
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Are you saying a business would rather sell you something than give you something for free? You might be on to something!
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I know, it's some crazy shit '-)
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I've lived in Munich, Kiel, and Freiburg-im-Breisgau. Also traveled extensively throughout Germany. Never once had a problem getting tap water. May you should consider yourself UNlucky.
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I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying that more often than not, when asking for tap water, you get attitude along with it. It depends on the place, too. In Italian restos in Germany it is not unusual to get tap water without a comment, IF you order wine as well.
In comparison to the US, where ice water is -- more often than not --- brought to the table without even asking whether this is wanted or not, it's certainly not common in Germany.
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I'm sorry but any restaurant who refuses to give you a glass of tap water with your food doesn't deserve your business. It's not liked you just walked in off the street and weren't already spending money there.
Personally, that would be my last visit to that sandwich shop, legalities aside.
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giving water at a restaurant in a glass with ice is a cost of doing business IMO. It would be like a hairdresser charging for the shampoo, or your doctor charging you for sheets of paper for your chart.
However I can see the deal for takeout places. Why should they be giving out free styrophone cups or paper cups even if you are buying a sandwich? I don't know it's one of those conundrums where the cost of paper goods has risen so much. I can see both sides of the argument.
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>>any restaurant who refuses to give you a glass of tap water with your food doesn't deserve your business.
Exactly. The antithesis is unacceptable.
Lots of restaurants out there.
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It is legal for them to refuse to "give" you water. They can charge you a nominal fee for it (to cover the costs associated with cups and such) but they don't have to give it away. Is it "smart" for them to start refusing to give away tap water? Yes; most definitely. No one, beyond a vocal minority, will care and they'll also see an upsurge in sales on their other drinks.
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Do you think that would be the case in sit-down restaurants where there really isn't much cost to giving away water since the glasses are reused? I live in a hot area and it's easy to gulp down a glass or two of water, but you can't exactly do that when you order a bottle of wine. With the economy the way it is these days, people are trying to find little ways to save and I can easily see people switching restaurants if some start offering bottled water only.
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It's a different business model... But if enough customers in a sit-down restaurant stop ordering soda/bottled drinks and increase tap water consumption, I could easily see them testing it.
Sort of like Lee with the "No free tap water" -- they'll watch the numbers and see if sales drop as a result. X% drop is acceptable; X-Y% quietly reintroduce free tap water."
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Any business model depends on keeping your current customer base happy, even if they're less profitable than others. The hardest thing in any business is to attract new customers.
Let's say you serve 300 regular customers a day in an office building sandwich shop who order a $6 sandwich. 90% (270) of them normally order a soda to go with the sandwich, 10% (30) ask for a traditionally free cup of tap water.
Now that you're refusing to provide free tap water--of the 30 who routinely ask for water, 15 will suck it up and pay $1.50 for a bottle of Dasani, 15 will never return (either silently or after voicing displeasure with management).
The 15 customers who are now buying your bottled water are providing an extra $5,625 in revenue to your business per year (250 workdays * 15 customers * $1.50/bottle).
The 15 ticked-off customers are no longer buying your sandwiches represent an annual revenue loss of $22,500 (250 * 15 * $6/sandwich).
Replacing this revenue with new customers is all the more difficult since some of those incoming customers will be equally ticked off at the water policy on their first and only visit.
Unless we're talking about refusing water to deadbeats who have no intention of ever ordering anything from your business, refusing free tap or asking for anything more than a nominal cup charge is a pennywise, pound-foolish decision.
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I completely agree.
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I think you're totally-torqued customers that won't return is too high: Of the original 15, ten will still pay for the sandwich, not ordering the bottled/canned drinks (they might even bring something along as a protest). Five will simply not return after the initial "No more free water for you" confrontation with four disappearing quietly and the fifth making a scene. I'd be surprised if the numbers were higher.
BTW: I would also think providing water to paying customers is a no-brainer but it seems to be how some sandwich shops work. To me, if it bothers them to "give something away for free" then charge for the cup and service. <shrug>
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You have to consider margins, though. Let's assume that your numbers are made up, but that that $1.50 bottle of Dasani costs you $.25, while the $6 sandwich costs you $5. (Please note that none of these numbers has any basis in reality; they're for illustration only.)
So your gross sales for the year go down $16,875. But your gross profits are up $937.50. Under these facts, you've made a good business decision.
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The $6 sandwich costs you $5 only when you apportion the cost of overhead (rent, utilities) that you'd be paying regardless of the customer volume. The marginal cost of providing that sandwich is two dollars worth of ingredients and wrapping paper, and a minute's worth of labor.
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