Ragu bolognese - question
Marcella Hazan's recipe for ragu bolognese calls for a cup of milk, added after you've sauteed off the meat, and then simmered until the milk has evaporated. This is then followed by the more usual cup of wine. So, why milk? I know liver is often simmered in milk to remove impurities and bitterness. Is it for similar reasons here?
Also, what secret (usually terribly inauthentic) ingredients do you add to your ragu?
Everyone seems to have some. Mine often include some of the following:
tomato paste, anchovy paste, worchester sauce, soy sauce, rehydrated, minced shitakes (and soaking liquid), smoked salt, chopped mushrooms, minced bockwurst, minced bacon.
Interested to hear what other hounds get up to...
Gooseberry
Jul 14, 2007 01:32PM
Here is her answer from her recipe:
"Cook the meat in milk before adding wine and tomatoes to protect it from the acidic bite of the latter."
I read her recipe, it does sound different, but people rave about it, so I think I would try her version at least once!
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I believe the lactic acid in the milk also tenderizes the meat, hence the loving and painstakingly slow process in her recipe. If this is your first time making here bolognese, follow it like gospel. I say this as a can't-help-myself improvisor when cooking.
The ONLY thing I did was use a tad more meat so the bolognese could suffice as a main course. Her's in used as a primi, I think.
The tagliatelle is key too. If not making it fresh, buy a nice dried egg tagliatelle. I bought 2 boxes from an Italian store, which cooked in 2 minutes.
I agree with Hazan's explanation above too. There are times when I want the just splashed in taste of white wine (like say with garlic, evoo and parm). But not this. This, is sublime.
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Thanks guys! I actually (gasp) don't have her bible, but got the recipe, paraphrased, off the web. I know, I know... it's on the list. The very long got-to-have list. It's nice to hear her explanation. I usually head off any tomato acidity with a teaspoonful of sugar, so it will be interesting to compare. It's simmering on the stove right now. Smells marvellous...
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Do report back! I'll be checking back to hear your testimony ;)
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I feel like I can't honestly give feedback on the Hazan recipe, because (as always) I couldn't help myself, ended up fiddling and adding things, etc. I know, I know - I need to stick to the recipe as written the first time I make a Hazan dish, to appreciate the glory that is Hazan food. Sigh...
Good news is, the only-part-Hazan ragu was lovely. I think cooking the meat for three hours is the key - all the muscle fibres relax and melt into the sauce. I got my butcher to put the meat through the mincer for me (rather than buying old mince), but next time I'm tempted to mince by hand some of the meat if I'm feeling energetic, for some variety in texture. I'm already a big fan of slow-braised meat, deboned and then tossed with pasta (lamb shanks, oxtail, etc) because I find the texture more interesting than mince.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
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I've followed the Hazan recipe like gospel about 25 times, and I cannot bring myself to modify it at all. It's that good, and I'm usually an incurable fiddler. That cookbook is absolutely amazing, I use it more than almost any other book I have.
Once you have it, you might also try her Spinach Lasagna that's based on this Bolognese. Make the fresh spinach pasta, and with this sauce and gobs of Hazan's wonderful Bechamel sauce, you've got a dish that your guests will remember! Mmm. Just made a big vat of it this afternoon.
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I follow that the milk-first order, and would add that, because milk takes longer to simmer off than wine or stock, more flavor is drawn from the meat in the process. I've tried both orders of reduction, and milk-first is better. My inauthentic addition to ragu bolognese is tomato paste, but nothing else, because tomato is merely an accent and I think the paste gets that note in with less acidic liquid (and apparently a number of Italian chefs agree with that inauthentic approach). Meat is the focus and nothing should compete with it: beef/pork/veal. Three reductions (milk, wine, stock, then add tomato paste). Nooooo mushrooms (I love them, but they conflict with a well-reduced ragu's balance - that would also apply to anchovy/soy-based sauces). Would not want any smoked flavors in a ragu bolognese; another off-balance. Do not use too much carrot; that's one of the more common mistakes. Ground or minced hanger steak would be very authentic...
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I think Batali puts a little tomato paste into his ragu bolgonese, but maybe I'm wrong.
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Batali adds a little bit of tomato paste but no tomatoes. And he does not cook down the wine and milk before leaving it to simmer and develop. His recipe also includes ground or minced pancetta with pork and veal.
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Secret ingredient? star anise
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When Cooks Illustrated, this is at least 5 years ago, did their multiple test/ultimate solution version of ragu, the recipe they came up with was only teaspoons away from Hazan's. She's right, she's almost always right. Her batting average is better than Julia Child's. Yeah, I said it.
That said I make a duck ragu that kills. Not the least bit authentic but no one seems to mind.
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So do you share the recipe for "Duck Ragu That Kills?" 'Cause I'd like to have it! I've looked up a few that are related to polenta, but they seemed to be not interesting for duck.
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Would that I could. It is a recipe that I clipped from an old NYTimes. I have it, I make it but I do not own in. I've never changed it enough that if I were to repeat it here I would not be violating all sorts of copyright laws and, I'm pretty certain, Chowhound's own rules.
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According to the chowhound rules, you can post the recipe. The ingredients are not under copyright protection but the verbatim instructions are protected. But, you can paraphrase the instructions and it will be fine.
Here is the excert from the "Guidelines for Posting Recipes" as well as the link to the source.
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/406906
"Ingredient lists don't fall under copyright protection, so you're welcome to repost those verbatim. The instructions and any intro paragraphs are covered under copyright protection; these you should paraphrase in your own words. We will be obliged to remove posts containing recipes copied verbatim from published sources, even if you credit the source."
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Does it look anything like this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/mag...
(One of the easiest ways to post a recipe you got off of the internet is to just post the link.)
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There's a good recipe for duck ragu included in this article from the LA Times which also includes Hazan's recipe and a lot of info about ragus in general, primarily about how they differ regionally throughout Italy.
Also how much American versions are different from anything in the Old Country. http://www.latimes.com/features/print...
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Thanks for that. It is much appreciated and is already filed. It may be the "go to" answer to any future ragu questions that arise on these boards.
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Thank you for the recipe...I have a question, do you measure the 1 1/2 cups of tomatoes before or after they are chopped?
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Just speaking from general recipe writing perspective, you'd measure afterwards.
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Thanks. Now you know why I eat out as often as I do <g>. When I cook I need "exact" instructions. I
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Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good. When you use canned tomatoes, there isn't that much difference between the whole tomatoes out of the can and the squished up ones that you throw into the pan. Since you cook the ragu for a pretty long time, it's not even necessary to chop them. They'll just melt into the sauce.
If you use 2 cups before squishing, no big deal. Now 3 cups, that would make a difference...
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Haven't made Marcella's but have been making Cook's for (I guess) at least 5 years and we love it. The time saver is reducing the wine to 2 tablespoons before adding it to the sauce.
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When I get around to making Hazan's bolognese, I know I won't be able to resist adding garlic and fresh basil.
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Do Hazan the favor of resisting it the first time you make it. Because if you don't resist, you won't be making Hazan's fabled recipe; strong flavors like garlic and basil completely throw off the point of the dish. Mind you, I love both flavors; but adding them is like adding them to pate de foie gras...they change the dish fundamentally. Make hers first, then yours.
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I strongly agree with this. MH's recipes are some of the very few I tend not to improvise with and never the first time. And the rare times I do deviate later it is generally to add just a bit more or less of an ingredient in the recipe as opposed to adding something that is not called for at all. Her bolognese is perfection. And I add the milk first as well.
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I agree with Karl and Queenie here as well.
In my experience with Marcella's recipes, I've usually found them to be somewhat different than most other Italian cooks' recipes so, from my perspective, a bit non-intuitive. Hence I follow them to the letter and am never disappointed.
A note about Bolognese, though. On Lidia's show where she makes her version of Bolognese (which I believe does not use the milk but does incorporate the wine) she emphasizes to make sure the liquid completely evaporates from the meat before adding the wine, an emphasis which the written recipe in her book ignores. When I use Marcella's recipe, I also do the same thing with the milk as the wine. Waiting for the water released from the meat to evaporate, the milk liquids to evaporate and the wine's liquid to evaporate before taking each subsequent step makes a world of difference. Well worth the extra patience in making this day long recipe.
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Kevine,
any chance you could post both Marcella's and Lidia's versions? My hubby loves the stuff, but so far I have not found a really good receipe.
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Lidia has hers on her Lidia's Italy web site. Not sure if Marcella's is posted anywhere.
The idea in main is to saute' a soffrito (a mixture of chopped onion, carrots, celery) in a dutch oven over a medium to medium high heat.
Once it is all pretty translucent, I make a space for ground veal and ground pork and cook until all the liquid given off by the meat has been reduced.
I find it really helps to be patient as it's best to get the meat to the point before it burns but there really is no liquid left. The meat by this point has taken on kind of a sheen.
I then add some milk and again let the liquid of the milk reduce until the milk solids have really absorbed into the meat. Then I do the same thing again with some white wine. Again patience and vigilence is key.
Once all the wine is reduced, then I stir in some tomato paste and let it carmelize a bit. Finally I add in a can or two of whole tomatoes by squeezing them into the oven and let the whole thing stew uncovered (or very slightly covered) for at least 3 hours, adding water if it dries out at all meanwhile. Note that this really isn't a tomato sauce with meat, it's a meat gravy with tomato flavoring.
When it's finally done, just spoon over pasta (something that will hold the sauce, like penne or rigatoni) and serve. And of course it really improves in flavor as a leftover the next couple of days.
HTH and any comments by others greatly appreciated.
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See my posting above in response to yayadave request for the Duck Ragu. The LA Times article link has Marcella Hazan's recipe plus some others as part of a really interesting article about regional ragus.
Finding a good recipe is hard because the sauces we are accustomed to in the US are so different from the ragus in Italy.
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Thanks for the link MakingSense!
:-)
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Buford in “Heat” tells of making ragu alla Medici in Italy. Meat beyond its “sell by” date and the usual aromatics were ground up. They put it all in a big pot on a big burner on the floor and gave him a big paddle and he stirred it for 6 hours. Some where in the middle they added some watery tomato sauce. Eventually it looked like sand and satisfied all the tasters. Then they added seasonings. Buford mentions lemon zest, cinnamon, coriander, nutmeg, and cloves. At this point they added enough wine to make it soupy. He doesn’t say how much longer he had to stir, because at that point in his tale he got side tracked when his apron caught fire. Yep, it’s different in Italy.
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Marcella's is indeed on line, at http://www.dolcevita.com/cuisine/reci...
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Don't do it; I tell you. The ragu has a distinct flavour and you will mess it up. Her recipe is fabulous. I follow it exactly. I may have to make some; haven't done it in a while.
I have two of her books and adore both; I rarely change her recipes.
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MOre to the point: the point of taking all that time to do three gradual reductions (it takes 2-3+ hours) is to get a certain sublime texture and subtle balance of flavors of a meat-based mixture. Strong flavors just miss the point of the dish entirely, and would make it a waste of time. Save the strong flavors for more quickly cooked sauces; they will be much more appropriate in that context. But why anyone would want to spend hours creating such a subtle sauce and then do that is a mystery to me; well, actually, not such a mystery - many Americans have developed a strong preference for bold flavors and don't appreciate subtle things like a proper ragu anymore. Why? Well, it's a combination of the fact that many of our own ingredients tend to be full-flavored (our fruits, our wines, our use of spices), and then we have the palate-coarsening effect of habituation to processed foods.
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I use the Dean and Deluca recipe which has grated carrots and finely chopped chicken livers in it. I think they both add richness and flavor to the bolgnese.
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I've made Hazan's recipe many times and it is the best. I have the Duck Rago recipe from the NY Times. It's one of Mario Batali's from his restaurant Lupa. Soon as I dig it out, I;ll post.
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How does one improve on a recipe that when served only brings smiles and thank yous from people at the table. jfood has made this recipe numerous times and is completely anal compulsive about the process. The results speak for themselves. This is just the best bolognese jfood has ever eaten. others may like bolder, spicier, more basil or garlic or any other variations, but for the beauty of the bolognese, this is the standard.
also make a double batch and freeze. on those long days when you are looking for a hug from dinner, defrosting and eating makes the long day turn into a subtle evening.
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I have never made bolognese before but had a hankering for it. So yesterday afternoon, I made Marcella Hazan's version and followed it precisely. It tasted great, but I have 2 questions:
I expected the finished product to be more "tomato-y" if that makes sense. I guess, in other words, it was less "saucy" than I expected. Is this how it should be?
Also, the recipe calls for "San Marzano tomatoes, cut up in their juice" (something like that -- I don't have the recipe in front of me now). I bought San Marzano tomaotes, Diced, with juice. Should I have bought Diced or Crushed?
Don't get me wrong, it tasted delicious and I stuck some in the freezer, which will be great to have later on, but I just want to check with the expert Chowhounds!
Thanks.
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I do think that is how it should be. I actually prefer the whole SM tomatoes, and dicing them up myself - don't know why, but I seem to get better flavour w/ those.
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Me too, for some reason the diced canned tomatoes definitely deliver inferior flavor, IMHO. I love Muir Glen whole tomatoes, or San Marzanos if you can find real ones (from Italy, not California)!
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For some reason, the diced/crushed have more of a "tinned" flavor, though I have no idea why!
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According to Mario Batali (I go back and forth between his Ragu Bolognese recipe in Molto Italiano and Marcella's), a ragu is by no means a tomato sauce. His is even less tomato-ey than Marcella's recipe, with just a bit of tomato paste.
On the tomato question, I always buy whole San Marzano tomatoes or Muir Glen whole plum tomatoes, pour them into a metal bowl and crush them with my hands before adding them to the sauce.
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Great, thanks. Will definitely make it again but next time I will buy whole tomatoes.
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Lydia uses the canned whole San Marzano tomatoes and pours into a bowl and with hands she removes the hard stem end and some of the seeds. It takes time but this is how I do it now. I've been told you need to look for cans that have D.O.P. on the label. The Italian market I shop at has 3 different brands of these.
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Ragu bolognese is *not* a tomato sauce at all. It is a meat sauce, usually with three sequential slow reductions (dairy, wine and then broth). Tomatoes are merely used as a slight condiment. If you notice the tomatoes, they are out of balance.
You should have bought whole tomatoes, neither diced nor crushed, and cut them yourself. Very preferably ones that are *not* canned with tomato puree as the liquid.
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Karl - do you have any idea *why* the whole ones taste better than the diced or canned ones - even in the same brand? Thank you.
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I'm not Karl, but if I may, part of the reason is simply that the tomatoes that are in good enough condidtion to be canned whole are better than the ones that have to have bad spots taken off them. Those are the ones that wind up chopped up or crushed.
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Thank you - and that makes perfect sense to me!
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Found this thread after debating with a friend -- we apparently have two different editions of the Hazan cookbook and the order of reduction is different in each. Mine is the 1973 Harper's Magazines 'The Classic Italian Cookbook' -- in that one, the Bolognese recipe order is a sofrito first (onions, carrots), then add the beef, then wine first (presumably to deglaze the pan and get a base going), then milk + nutmeg, then tomatoes. I find this yields an incredible creamy sauce and does reduce the acidity of the tomatoes by a great deal.
My only modification is using 35% heavy cream in place of milk -- adding a knob of butter sometimes -- occasionally substituting red wine for white - and if it's lacking a touch of sweetness, a drizzle of honey and a pinch of sea salt at the finish. I use this as a lasagna sauce.
For vegetarians, this recipe works really well with Yves Veggie Ground Round -- in fact I've had some people swear it was real beef in the sauce ;) Saves on the browning time as well.
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