What makes the Philadelphia Italian Hoagie different from the rest?

Question

I'm doing a little research into Philadelphia-style hoagies. Chime in on your iconic sandwich and why it's different than New York, Maine or Subway sandwiches. I'm not interested in the best sandwich shops, but I would like to learn about the construction of Philly's hoagies.

Here's my questions:

1. Yes, I know it's about the bread, but this is for the rest of us in the world that can't get Amoroso's in our home town. I've heard it's not as crusty as New York grinders, and a medium-soft texture to the inside that lies somewhere between NY and the pillow-softness of New Orleans po' boys.
2. This is NOT about the cheesesteak!! I'm talking specifically about the ITALIAN cold hoagie.
3. Mayo... yes or no?
4. Vinegar... yes or no?
5. Favorite cold cuts?
6. Is salami a must?
7. How about capicola?
8. Spice blend... is it just salt, pepper, basil, oregano?
9 Peppers.. yes or no? Chopped in a relish or whole? Hot or sweet?


Go ahead you Philly experts! Break down you Philly favs for me.
 
Thanks a lot for your input.

Answer

Just fair warning that this thread will soon degenerate into the caliber of "Cheesesteak wars." Everyone has an opinion. From my understanding, the hoagie was originally a loaf of Italian bread generously lubricated with high quality olive oil, laden with sliced Italian meats and cheeses and generously sprinkled with oregano. This was the original Hogg Island sandwich that the shipbuilders took to work. Tomatoes, lettuce, onion and peppers came much later.

Bread is very important. Amoroso's is not the be all and end all. Its good but I prefer Conshohocken Italian Bakery. Mayo makes a submarine or whatever else you want to call it. Its blasphemy on a real hoagie. Vinegar on a hoagie is unknown to me. Meats must be high quality Italian recipe. If you have salami, it should be Genoa, not German hard salami. Capicolla is great. Mortadella, too. Provolone but never Swiss or American cheese. Shredded lettuce, tomats and onion if you like. Garnish with top quality olive oil, sliced pepperonici and oregano. That's my take on a real hoagie. I'm sure to get broadsided for this but let's rock and roll!
CP

Answer

Not necessarily Amoroso's, but definitely a good Italian roll delivered fresh every morning (and at busier spots morning and noon). And to kick off cwdonald's war--please no seeded rolls.

Good olive oil--Bravo is correct that mayo will get you shot ;), but I disagree that there are good places that use anything but olive oil. And I would add that vinegar would also be an executable offense for me.

Quality meats: cappicola (or gabagoo as my BIL says), Italian hard salami, provolone. Shredded lettuce, tomato, onion. Salt, pepper, oregano and a final squirt of olive oil. Hot or sweet peppers are optional, but whole--not relish.

Answer

1. Sarcone's without a doubt
2. The South Philly Italian in Sonny's (Limerick) is the BEST!
3. Mayo - NO WAY
4. Vinegar... could go either way, but I think the better the bread and cuts of meat, it's a no...so @ Sonny's NO, @ Wawa YES
5. the best Italian cold cuts
6. Is salami a must? not really
7. How about capicola? yes
8. Spice blend... is it just salt, pepper, basil, oregano? Basil, no way
9 Peppers.. yes or no? Chopped in a relish or whole? Hot or sweet? I prefer hot cherry peppers 
http://www.sonnysdeli.com/Menu%20-%20Hoagies%20and%20More.pdf

Answer

Love this thread.I'll bite!

1. For me its not so much about the bread its what's inside. and don't like seeds
2. I love Italian hoagies so much more than cheesesteaks!
3. Mayo... NO
4. Vinegar... YES don't forget the OIL
5. Favorite cold cuts? SHARP PROVOLONE CHEESE
6. Is salami a must? YES
7. How about capicola? YES
8. Spice blend... is it just salt, pepper, basil, oregano? SALT< PEPPER< OREGANO
9 Peppers.. yes or no? Chopped in a relish or whole? Hot or sweet I LOVE THE PEPPER SPREAD AT SALUMERIA- but if elsewhere i order HOT peppers to give it a little BITE!

OTHER HOAGIE FAVS: Turkey/cheese/roasted peppers. Roast beef/cheese/sweet peppers. I'm also a WAWA fan.

Answer

Great thread and fun to read! Thanks for starting it scotdc! So glad to see the universal vote for NO MAYO thus far. Where I live, in a suburb of philly, some of the places will put mayo on hoagies and even cheesesteaks automatically. Even if you tell them no mayo but oil please. The best places in my opinion give you chopped raw onions when you ask for onions, not those days old string like onions from out of a food processor that make me gag.

Answer

Fantastic response from everybody!! Thank you for stepping up to the plate Philadelphia!

Obviously, mayo is out of here, and an interesting minority for vinegar. Thanks for throwing basil out of the equation, I had read on someone's "official" hoagie page that basil was important. Maybe I can find a recipe for the sweet and sour Philly style peppers that 94Bravo is talking about.

Capicola, Mortadella, Italian salami and sharp provolone. Do I need to tell you all what's on my Super Bowl plate this weekend?

Thanks again to everybody!

Answer

Great, now I need a hoagie.

Answer

While not in Philly, my favorite, in the general area, is White House Subs in Atlantic City. I've been going there since the mid-sixties. They compare favoriblly to the Italian essence of the hoagie. Same sandwich, different name. No bricks and bats please.
white house sub shop menu

-----
White House Sub Shop
2301 Arctic Ave, Atlantic City, NJ 08401

Answer

The use of vinegar prevails on the Eastern side of the Delaware River. Mayo, on the other hand, seems to be more readily used to foul sandwiches to the North and West of the City

As an aside, I remember my first week in college in Reading. I ordered an "Italian," from a nearby sandwich shop with "everything." In Jersey, that's a sub (likely, a "Number 4") and it would be dressed with oil, vinegar, salt, pepper, oregano, onions, etc. A burst of Mayo hit my tongue upon the first bite and by reflex I spit it on the floor. I had never even imagined such a thing could be done. Thankfully, Lord Chesterfield was cheap.

Answer

3. Mayo... yes or no?

depends

4. Vinegar... yes or no?

depends

5. Favorite cold cuts?

depends

6. Is salami a must?

depends

7. How about capicola?

depends

8. Spice blend... is it just salt, pepper, basil, oregano?

depends

9 Peppers.. yes or no? Chopped in a relish or whole? Hot or sweet?

depends. depends. depends.

Answer

"Yes, I know it's about the bread, but this is for the rest of us in the world that can't get Amoroso's in our home town."

You're not going to be able to replicate the sandwich without the right bread. I don't really know what to tell you but a supermarket "Italian" roll will not make a Philadelphia hoagie. As others have indicated it is *the* most important part. There are all kinds of hoagies, even turkey and American cheese, and what makes them taste like home is the bread.

There are exceptions to this but most places put the cheese down first, directly on the bread. This makes a difference to me, the way the cheese combines with the bread. I never really noticed it until I started getting crappy sandwiches when I lived in Ohio, and realized I missed that gluten+fat combo of the cheese on bread.

Also you may want to try regular provolone as well as sharp, IMO sharp only works with certain meats/veggies and bread that isn't too bready. Mild provolone (not totally bland supermarket stuff) gives a very classic hoagie taste that is foolproof.

Answer

Damn you! Now I want an Italian hoagie.
I like the bread from Sarcones. No Mayo. Olive oil. Basic cold cuts are capicola, genoa salami. Must have provolone. Salt, pepper, oregano. Sweet peppers for me. Shredded lettuce, tomatoes, onions.

Answer

speaking as a former Philly guy, now living in Florida, the Italian Hoagie is a Philly institution as is the Cheesesteak and roasted pork sandwich. Sarcones defines the Italian Hoagie, oil and vinegar, the amazing seeded roll, aged provolone... can't say anymore. There is nothing, and I mean nothing in Florida that comes close. Coming home next week just to visit Sarcones!!!!!

Answer

My favorite hoagie is from Lenny's in Roxborough. The "Godfather" is a family favorite.

Sarcone Italian roll with seeds (love the seeds) oil, sharp provolone and a variety of quality Italian meats.

To me an Italian Hoagie (Philly style) is about the bread - you really have to rip into the bread with your teeth, so satisfying. Oil (never, ever mayo) some places use a hoagie spread which is herb infused oil and vinegar mix, I can get behind that. Otherwise, no need to add the vinegar, but I won't shun it either. 

As far as the meats go - as long it's high quality. Yes, salami and capicolla and sharp provolone are a must, anything else is a bonus. That said - I do like mortadella a lot.

The only spice I need is oregano, plus the mandatory lettuce, tomatoes and thinly sliced onion. No peppers for me - but I do like one or two peperonchini on the side, for a little kick at the end of a delicious hoagie.

Answer

You should live down here in Tennessee! Hogie? Whats that? I'm from south Jersey. Burlington. Big Ed's had the best damn hogies in the world. Man I miss 'em. I think vinegar was on those sandwiches. Whenever I get up home, the first thing I eat is a "HOGIE". I have to search now, don't live there, but know what to ask for. By the way, found this thread searching for hogie Recipe. Thanks to all for the input. Just gotta find some good bread somewhere.

Answer

From my youth in Chester, Pennsylvania I recall a few details that are missing today:
1) Meat was fresh sliced 
2) Tomatoes were fresh sliced as well (don't recall if the lettuce or onions were tho')
3) Hoagie is finished w/ a last drizzle of oil 
3) The guy made it in front of you behind a low pane of glass (or was it plastic?)
5) The price was totaled using long hand addition on the paper bag that your hoagie and chips were placed into.

Answer

Somewhat off topic: I love to eat hoagies when I get them, but to me, there is nothing better than a good hoagie which spends the night in my refrigerator and gets eaten the next day. The cold seems to firm everything up and gives the oil time to soak deep into the roll. Is it just me, or do others like hoagies that way?

Answer

I was born in Philly 71 years ago. Grew up in Fishtown on Mercer St and played in string bands. I grew up on hoagies. When I was a kid most of the older adults (grandparents) still called them Hoggies after the Hog Island shipyard workers that brought the sandwiches for lunch. Here is what an authentics hoagie consists of: Great Italian rolls, good quality extra virgin olive oil, good red wine vinegar, oregano (sprinkled on the onion that is added last with salt and pepper, then the oil then vinegar) meats all thinly sliced--prosciutto, capicola, genoa salami, then provolone cheese. ripe tomato preferable roma. Then lettice 1/4' shred,then, yellow onion sliced paper thin, piled high. I was so young when I first started eating hoagies I don't know if the hoagie peppers were offered or not. I like them (Haddon House is good). If used they go on the tomatoes. Usually some bread was torn out of the inside of the roll so you could get you mouth around it. I you plan to research the original cheese know that it was NOT made with Chez Wiz.

Answer

I'm from South Jersey, 8 miles from Camden, thus about 10 from Philadelphia.

My comment is that I don't understand how Subway stays in business in this area since their sandwiches in no way resemble a good hoagie. 

'Do you want bell pepper and black olives on that?'

Answer

Grew up in Delaware County.. extreme SE PA. Back when I was a kid (in 1492), Chester was actually a CITY... with businesses... now it's a battleground.

Dicostanza's started on 3rd street. Remember going with Dad to get hoagies. Mama Dicostanza would always slice off something to snack on... I always hoped for a PAPER THIN slice of provolone. Remember her drizzling GOOD olive oil out of a gallon can with tiny hole poked in the corner... and a liberal shake od "dry" stuff... oregano!?! They moved to somewhere in the Claymont, DE area in 70's for a while. There's be a HUGE line of people waiting every weekend.

Worked for a few years at an alternative school in Chester not long ago. EVERY Friday, as I was getting ready to leave school, would call Phil & Jim's in Parkside to put in my order for a "special, everything sweet, hot peppers on the side". After 2-3 calls, they started recogniziing/expecting my voice.

Think one of the most important things in a good hoagie just might be the BREAD!?! Not too crusty, chewy center. They'd start by liberally drizzling bread with olive oi. Then piled high with VERY THIN slices of genoa salami, ham, cappicola, provolone. Topped off with TORN (not shredded) lettuce, THIN sliced tomatoes, Sweet peppers (San Del, I think from a huge gallon jar) and thin sliced dill pickles... that was the "everything sweet". A handful of hot San Del peppers wrapped up in a little hunk wax paper. NO mayo or vinegar, EVER! They'd do something on request called wrapped "to travel". All the meat & cheese on bread. Everything else laid out on foil and bundled up so it just sat inside sandwich. When ya got where ya wanted to be, ya just dumped all that goodness out onto sandwich. Vividly remember driving to VT/NH with friends to go skiing. I bought hoagies the night before... stashed in car trunk when we threw everything in to pack. We left WAY before dawn to miss the NJ Parkway traffic... hoagies would been GONE by 8am if they'd been IN the car. We get to our destination and meet other firends... you guys smell like HOAGIES!!

Used to be a place in Toby Farms (Brookhaven, PA) called Wojies. Excellent hoagies and cheese steaks. This guy packed up and went to Arizona or Nevada and I understand he made a KILLING. Seems a LOT of transplanted/retired Philly area people out there who missed an area staple. He had THE bread shipped in daily.

Answer

The rolls. Every other ingredient can be had anywhere.

Answer

Anyone who answers question 3 correctly (hint: the answer is NO) and finds himself/herself in Providence should check out the Sandwich Hut on North Main St and order either the Allitalia or Deluxe Grinder. I think you will approve. Take a look at the pictures:

www.thesandwichhut.com.

Answer

Mayo Never
Vinegar Yes Red wine vinegar
Mortadella ,Salami Sopersatta, capicola(hot or sweet)
salt pepper basil and oregano Italian blend
Cherry peppers sliced or chopped never sweet

Answer

I agree the BREAD might be the make it or break it ingredient... it's never sliced in half, just cut partially thru and kinda squashed open. Liberal oil drizzled and nice shake of oregano as a base. The meats and cheese HAVE to be ultra thin and copious... provolone cheese, Genoa salami, cappicola, pepper ham, etc. NO vinegar... that comes from the "sweet" pickled peppers (San del)... I always ask for some hot pepper rings "on the side" in a little packet of wax paper. If it has mayo... it's NOT a hoagie. Anything other than provolone cheese... NOT a hoagie. If it's just turkey or roast beef or tuna... it's NOT a hoagie.... just a nice sandwich on a long roll. Onions are diced... taken from same big container that can make their way onto griddle for a cheese steak. Tomatoes are thinly sliced & lettuce is NOT shredded. Once assembled the whole thing gets another drizzle of olive oil before it's cut in half and wrapped in "hoagie paper".

Answer

A good italiam hoagie must have Meats including capicola, helmans mayo, sweet peppers, oil, oregano, provolone cheese, black pepper along with lettuce & tomatoes on italian roll. I want one right now! I hate when I'm asked do I want lettuce & tomatoes....I want a hoagie, not a sandwich!

Answer

What is a hogie? Is that a sub? lol

Answer

As a native NYer and transplant to Philly it is as much in the format of the sandwich as the fillings

A Hoagie is a fundamentally different sandwich from a NY Sub/Hero/Wedge (I think "wedge" is hyper-local to Westchester County/Bronx)

In a "Hero" etc the fillings are laid flat on the bottom half of the bread - then the toppings - then dressing - then the lid is closed on top - if cut in section the sandwich has clear horizontal layers,Bread Meats, Cheese, Toppings, Dressing (soggy layer of bread), Bread 

A Hoagie on the other hand is cut and opened like a "V" the fillings are laid across the V with toppings placed on top and then the dressing - so the interior of the sandwich is turned 90degrees from a "Hero" and then folded. The result is the toppings end up in between the meats and cheese which are primarily in contact with the bread.

I found this format irritating when I relocated to Philly but have come to accept it as normal. I still prefer a hero.

Answer

I cannot speak as a local authority. But I do recall spending several days in Philly and driving home to Indiana with a sub from Salumeria or DiNic's (not sure which) at Reading Terminal Market. As I was going take-out, they kept the wet additions, like olive mix, in separate containers.

Thus I had the memorable experience of unpacking this sublime sammy in an Ohio turnpike rest-stop, where others were eating Sbarro and Subway and McDonalds. There was no comparison.

The bread is an important issue: it cannot be wimpy USA white bread but the crust also needs to be softer than a regular baguette. 

The vinaigrette was important and also the tapenade-style of olives and such that were kept apart in containers. It was the best sub I've ever had.

Answer

Since you know about the rolls I won't waste time with that except to say there are other bakeries that have those wonderful rolls like Buono's in Chester & a couple in Southern NJ.

Mayo, vinegar NEVER! What's a spice blend? Pepper strips hot or sweet but the brand is indigenous to the Delaware Valley & not found anywhere else.

Let me point out that there's a big difference in Italian hoagies between hoagie shops especially Philly vs. the suburbs. I'm in Delaware County so I'm going to walk you through the whole process start to finish of the award winning Italian hoagie.

I order my hoagie simply by saying "Everything Sweet" The process starts with the cutting of the fresh roll & it's spread open next to the meat slicer as the meat is always fresh sliced as the hoagie is made. The meat & cheese is always very thin sliced. The meat is Genoa Salami, Peppered Ham & Capicola. The cheese is Provolone. The meats & cheese are centered on the roll as it's sliced. Next up is the lettuce (never shredded) diced onions (Spanish - no purple) which are large diced pieces not sliced. The pickles are thin dill & the pepper strips are SAN-DEL either sweet or hot. The peppers are another item like rolls that are only available in the Philly area but you can buy them on Amazon too for about 10 times the price. 

Next is the drizzling of the oil which is just a vegetable oil. I've tried olive oil at home & it's really too rich for a hoagie. Then oregano & the final step is a top layer of peppered ham to lock it all in.

Answer

I think the key ingredient is the sharp provolone. When I returned to the SF Bay Area from a trip to Philly, I was hard put to find a cheese like what I had in Philly. I found some reasonable substitutes but not exactly the same sharpness and flavor.

Answer

Never met anyone in Philly that didn't opt for mayo on their hoagie

Answer

And what part of philly was this?

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