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Cocktails & Spirits

Martini pairings and garnishes

tim irvine | Mar 4, 201705:36 PM 63
Gin Martini

We recently had a bottle of Botanist and used our usual Dolin dry. The result was a little too soft, almost not a martini but my, what an amazing gin. Using a twist instead of an olive (bottled in vermouth, rinsed, I hate dirty martinis) helped. We started tinkering with gin vermouth pairings. Some gins need something more assertive like Vya or Noilly. Others don't. Some need a twist, some need an olive, and a few are even ok with a spear of pickled okra (marthibodeaux). Last night was Bombay and Noilly. I think I prefer Bombay with Dolin, but on a less sharp gin, such as a Boodles or even a Plymouth, I like a more flavorful vermouth. Anyone else engaged in this pastime? Anyone ever figure out what works best with Hendricks? I'm thinking it might be good with Lillet.

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63 Comments

  1. stevewi I prefer Hendrick's on the rocks with a twist...same for Aviation (depending on your location, you might not have heard of it but...

    I prefer Hendrick's on the rocks with a twist...same for Aviation (depending on your location, you might not have heard of it but it's pretty common here in Oregon).

    For garnish, I like pickled asparagus, pepperoncini, cocktail onions, pickled okra, tom-olives, peppadew peppers, goat horn peppers...and, of course, olives -- stuffed with pimientos, pickled lemon peel and pickled jalapeño peppers (not all at the same time).

    I like Sapphire a lot. In Portland, there are a lot of craft-distilled gins...one of the good things about state-controlled liquor distribution is that small, local producers are afforded some market protection and get shelf space in the state stores. It would be hard for me to pick a favorite. For vermouth, my go to is Noilly.

    -- sw

    5 Replies
    1. tim irvine re: stevewi Yep, those all sound fun. The craft gin scene here sounds similar, but I think you guys are ahead on craft vermouth, which I find...

      Yep, those all sound fun. The craft gin scene here sounds similar, but I think you guys are ahead on craft vermouth, which I find odd because Vigonier is our predominant white and it would make a lovely backbone for a vermouth.

      1. stevewi re: tim irvine If you are ever in north-of-Sacramento CA, there's a little town along I-5 called Corning. Corning is in the heart of the olive...

        If you are ever in north-of-Sacramento CA, there's a little town along I-5 called Corning. Corning is in the heart of the olive-growing region of CA. In Corning, right off the freeway, there's a place called "The Olive Pit." It's sort of one of those roadside attractions advertised on signs miles away on the freeway ("The Olive Pit...only 47 miles!").

        Anyway, what the Olive Pit carries is olives...all kinds of olives...stuffed with all kinds of things...their own brand and others. They also carry pickled stuff of various varieties, very good local olive oil, vinegar, etc. If you're ever in that part of the world, stop in (if, for nothing else, to use the bathroom). They have a tasting bar so you can taste a lot of their olives beforehand.

        I REALLY like their cocktail onions -- regular sour kind, habañero-infused and sweet. They're always crunchy and not soggy (nothing worse!). The spicy and sweet ones make a nice counterpoint to the medicinal taste of the gin.

        They do mail-order too:

        http://www.olivepit.com

        You might be able to get Aviation Gin where you are. House Spirits recently sold the brand to a big distributor (HS is still the producer). It's not London dry gin and has a botanical mix that doesn't emphasize juniper. It has a mildly sweet flavor (due to the citrus and cardamom) and a lovely, root-beer-y finish from the sassafras bark. I don't care for it in martinis but it's lovely on the rocks with a twist or with a splash(!) of tonic. See:

        http://portlandfoodanddrink.com/your-...

        A couple of these make very nice aquavits too...a nice departure from gin in a martini.

        There is some lovely gin made in and around Bend, OR as well...using the local juniper berries:

        http://www.bendbulletin.com/lifestyle...

        Here's a comprehensive list of craft distillers from all around the state:

        http://oregondistillerytrail.com

        If you are at all into brandy, Clear Creek is a must try (esp. pear and kirschwasser from Mt Hood pears and cherries...they make a pretty decent scotch too -- spendy and limited distribution because of limited annual production). The bourbons and whiskeys noted on this list have really grown up since their introductions 5 years or so ago (I had some really nice rye whiskey from Eastside Distilling I got at the Portland Farmers' Market last weekend -- I drank the entire small & expensive bottle neat as one should). You should give the wheat whiskey a try.

        Rogue and McMenamins are probably my least favorites on any of these lists. However, they are two of the biggest so probably have wider distributions. However, they can periodically surprise (I like McMenamins cynar for example).

        -- sw

        1. Sablehart re: stevewi Thanks for this run-down--we're actually thinking of doing a road trip to Portland from the Bay Area in September, and we'd love...

          Thanks for this run-down--we're actually thinking of doing a road trip to Portland from the Bay Area in September, and we'd love to squeeze in a distillery or two.

          1. stevewi re: Sablehart If you come after Labor Day, hotels in Oregon will be cheaper. If you don't stay downtown, you won't have to pay $25/night to park...

            If you come after Labor Day, hotels in Oregon will be cheaper. If you don't stay downtown, you won't have to pay $25/night to park your car.

            My suggestion, if you're driving, stay in Beaverton (you'll be able to park there), and use our great transit system to get around downtown (you can use the MAX to get from Beaverton to downtown and back). You'll save a fortune in parking. Transit downtown is $5/person/day for all modes. Parking is $1.60/hr.

            Fall in Portland is just exquisite weather-wise...the days are still long and warm but the nights are beginning to cool. We have real seasons here so the fall colors will be a treat.

            If we can figure out how to exchange email privately, I'd be happy to send you some travel tips off board.

            -- sw

            1. Sablehart re: stevewi That's great info, thanks! Hmm, I haven't found a way to private message you, but thanks for the offer.

              That's great info, thanks! Hmm, I haven't found a way to private message you, but thanks for the offer.

    2. Sablehart I'm a martini novice, but the other night I swapped out my usual twist of lemon for preserved lemon peel (well-rinsed) instead...

      I'm a martini novice, but the other night I swapped out my usual twist of lemon for preserved lemon peel (well-rinsed) instead, and it was like having the best of both worlds--citrus and brininess, especially as the lemon sat in the class for few minutes. Went especially well with the citrus-forward Malfy gin I was using.

      1 Reply
      1. tim irvine re: Sablehart That sounds great, especially for the combo of a lighter gin like a Boodles and a soft vermouth like a Dolin.

        That sounds great, especially for the combo of a lighter gin like a Boodles and a soft vermouth like a Dolin.

      2. m
        mercurygirl Tim, I know you share my appreciation for Citadelle with Lillet (I'm appreciating that combo right now, as a matter of fact). Have...

        Tim, I know you share my appreciation for Citadelle with Lillet (I'm appreciating that combo right now, as a matter of fact). Have you ever paired Citadelle with Dolin? I'd like to expand my horizons to include some actual vermouths and am wondering where to begin.

        Also, I am adding The Botanist to my to-try list. I had an opportunity last month, when it was the gin being poured during the cocktail hour at a friend's wedding, but I was sipping wine (Meomi pinot noir) rather than martinis at the time.

        7 Replies
        1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl We rotate Dolin, Lillet, and Vya. They are each and all great, but my favorite is Vya. Dolin is extremely soft. That works with...

          We rotate Dolin, Lillet, and Vya. They are each and all great, but my favorite is Vya. Dolin is extremely soft. That works with a very flavorful gin IMO. Hope you are enjoying the Citadelle and Lillet. We are taking a detour tonight. A friend gave us a bottle of Booker’s (bourbon), so good but cask strength dangerous! One drink is oodles!

          1. m
            mercurygirl re: tim irvine Hope your detour into bourbon proved a delicious one! Would something like Bluecoat qualify as "a very flavorful gin"? Asking...

            Hope your detour into bourbon proved a delicious one!

            Would something like Bluecoat qualify as "a very flavorful gin"? Asking because I have some in the cabinet, of course. I can pick up a half-bottle of Dolin Dry and try it out.

            And hey, whaddaya know? The Vya folks actually recommend Citadelle to go with their vermouth! https://shop.quadywinery.com/product/...

            1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl I think of Bluecoat as a complex but fairly subtle gin. It isn’t super juniper forward and not as citrus heavy as some. I think...

              I think of Bluecoat as a complex but fairly subtle gin. It isn’t super juniper forward and not as citrus heavy as some. I think Dolin pairs with it because it doesn’t overwhelm its subtleties. A sharper vermouth (think Noilly Prat. :0(. ) would dominate a subtle gin like Bluecoat. Vya on the other hand is somehow capable of adding to the complexity without fighting or overwhelming it. It’s unique in my experience. It’s turned more than a few gins I didn’t really like into good martinis. I think you’ll like Bluecoat and Dolin. The Booker’s was terrific. It really is one of my favorite bourbons, but it is definitely an “only one” bourbon. Cheers!

              1. m
                mercurygirl re: tim irvine Thanks for the suggestions, Tim! I'm also intrigued by Comoz Blanc (owned by Dolin): https://alpenz.com/product-comoz_blanc.html...

                Thanks for the suggestions, Tim!

                I'm also intrigued by Comoz Blanc (owned by Dolin): https://alpenz.com/product-comoz_blan...

                1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl Just don’t make a martini with blanc as opposed to dry. See my thread on A Bad Idea for a martini.

                  Just don’t make a martini with blanc as opposed to dry. See my thread on A Bad Idea for a martini.

                  1. JMF re: tim irvine You can make an excellent cocktail using blanc. but you have to change the proportions, and expect something more like a martinez...

                    You can make an excellent cocktail using blanc. but you have to change the proportions, and expect something more like a martinez in taste.

                    1. m
                      mercurygirl re: tim irvine I'm already pairing my gins with Lillet Blanc, so I'm accustomed to (and enjoy) more sweetness than a dry vermouth would contribute...

                      I'm already pairing my gins with Lillet Blanc, so I'm accustomed to (and enjoy) more sweetness than a dry vermouth would contribute. I'm intrigued by Comoz because it sounds like an approximate midpoint between a dry and a blanc in terms of sweetness -- 80 grams of sugar per liter. By comparison, Dolin Blanc has 130 grams of sugar per liter, and Dolin Dry has 25 (according to Difford's). Lillet Blanc seems to have a little more than Comoz (officially 86 grams, but maybe as much as 98: https://www.guildsomm.com/4cb697f52c/...).

                      From the French magazine WhiskyMag (by way of Google Translate):
                      "According to our research, the vermouth of Chambéry white, the original, was certainly fresh but with a clear presence of alpine herbs and a level of sugar which would place it between the dry vermouth to the Noilly (30 g per liter of our days, 55 g then) and the whites of today. An analysis carried out in 1878 places the Comoz at 82 g per liter. The Comoz 'new' is 80 g."

                      https://translate.google.com/translat...

          2. tim irvine It being the holidays and all, if you are an adventurous sort, St. George Terroir combines a great martini with the experience of...

            It being the holidays and all, if you are an adventurous sort, St. George Terroir combines a great martini with the experience of cutting your own Christmas tree. It has a heavy dose of fir! Seriously like being in a forest of fir trees in the PNW! Paired with Dolin it’s great. Paired with Noilly it might tip over the edge and be like working in a lumberyard.

            3 Replies
            1. Perilagu Khan re: tim irvine I'm currently engaged in a torrid affair with Gin Mare, a Spanish gin featuring rosemary, thyme, olives and basil. This gin is simultaneously...

              I'm currently engaged in a torrid affair with Gin Mare, a Spanish gin featuring rosemary, thyme, olives and basil. This gin is simultaneously smooth as ice and lip-smackingly savory. It's such a marvelous spirit that I expect it would work well in just about any application, but I use it for martinis with Martini vermouth and two slices of lemon peel. I've gotten to the point of much preferring lemon to olives in my martinis, and at any rate, Gin Mare already has a distinct olive zest to its flavor profile. Regardless, I cannot recommend this gin highly enough!

              1. m
                mercurygirl re: Perilagu Khan I have yet to try Gin Mare, but it sounds wonderful. I've been thinking that it might be just the thing to convert my "dirty (vodka...

                I have yet to try Gin Mare, but it sounds wonderful. I've been thinking that it might be just the thing to convert my "dirty (vodka) martini"-loving niece to the wonders of gin. ;)

                1. Perilagu Khan re: mercurygirl Yes. It just might do the trick alright.

                  Yes. It just might do the trick alright.

            2. m
              mercurygirl Progress report: Today I bought another bottle of Citadelle; it has become a staple for me. To experiment with it, I bought a bottle...

              Progress report: Today I bought another bottle of Citadelle; it has become a staple for me. To experiment with it, I bought a bottle of Cocchi Americano Bianco and a half-bottle of Vya Extra Dry. Tonight I made a 50/50 of the Citadelle and Cocchi with 3 drops of Gary Regan's orange bitters and a generous lemon twist. Delicious! This just might become my go-to cocktail.

              3 Replies
              1. helpermonkey re: mercurygirl I think Citadelle is excellent. Alexandre, who distills it in France, worked quite hard at even bringing this gin to the market...

                I think Citadelle is excellent. Alexandre, who distills it in France, worked quite hard at even bringing this gin to the market. Story goes (as told to me by Alexandre himself, to the best of my memory as this was some years ago) that he had to request permission through a certain French official to distill the gin for sale. The official denied him this request (an AOC hiccup) but Alexandre was persistent. He kept getting a repeated "no" and working on the recipe/technique in the meantime. The man's secretary finally said... "listen, he's going to retire soon and when he does I'll be taking his place. I'll give you the go ahead to make your gin." And after 5 years (!) of waiting, that's what happened. The day the guy retired Alexandre made his request yet again and the guy told him something to the effect of "relax, it's my first day, come back tomorrow" and he got his permission.

                He is also involved in Cognac Ferrand and I highly recommend everything they make - from the brandies and curaçao to the very, very good Plantation rums, and Mathilde line. It used to be part of my job to taste booze so... :) To be fair, there are many great gins I haven't had the chance to sample, just saying Citadelle is one I consider very good - with a really good price point.

                1. m
                  mercurygirl re: helpermonkey It is a great value, IMHO. Funny thing: Last summer I was contemplating making some daiquiris (which I never got around to doing...

                  It is a great value, IMHO.

                  Funny thing: Last summer I was contemplating making some daiquiris (which I never got around to doing) and, after doing some reading about rums, put Plantation 3 Stars on my shopping list. I didn't realize it was from the same house as Citadelle!

                2. m
                  mercurygirl re: mercurygirl Had I taken the time to read the Cocchi's back label, I would have realized that my go-to cocktail already existed and had a name...

                  Had I taken the time to read the Cocchi's back label, I would have realized that my go-to cocktail already existed and had a name: the Eventide!

                  Meanwhile, I have confirmed that Cocchi tastes just fine all by itself over ice.

                3. m
                  mercurygirl Progress report part 2: I am now sipping Citadelle + Vya (again 50/50) with a lemon twist and it's delicious — much better than...

                  Progress report part 2: I am now sipping Citadelle + Vya (again 50/50) with a lemon twist and it's delicious — much better than the same drink made with Dolin. I forgot the bitters so will have to add them next time. Gee, testing martini pairings and garnishes is a consuming hobby! ;)

                  20 Replies
                  1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl I think a Vya and Citadelle martini is wonderful, even though I’d probably go 2:1. When my samplings cause me to gamble on a new...

                    I think a Vya and Citadelle martini is wonderful, even though I’d probably go 2:1. When my samplings cause me to gamble on a new gin and it’s a bust Vya can usually save it. But right now I’m tremendously happy with a Punt e Mes on the rocks. Cheers!

                    1. JMF re: tim irvine I haven't had Vya recently, but I felt it wasn't complex enough to be worth adding to a cocktail. Personally, I thought it led to...

                      I haven't had Vya recently, but I felt it wasn't complex enough to be worth adding to a cocktail. Personally, I thought it led to liquid boringness. The reason I use vermouth is for complexity with a bit of sweetness, or tartness, depending upon the type.

                      1. tim irvine re: JMF So which dry vermouth(s) is (are) your favorite(s) for martinis?

                        So which dry vermouth(s) is (are) your favorite(s) for martinis?

                        1. JMF re: tim irvine I have gotten away from Martini's, although I do try them whenever I run into new Gin and Vermouth. I prefer gin on the rocks, or...

                          I have gotten away from Martini's, although I do try them whenever I run into new Gin and Vermouth. I prefer gin on the rocks, or stirred and up. I also like martini's made with blanc/bianco sweet white vermouth. And even more so using herbal/bitter aperitifs. Balance in using biancos and the herbals is key, and small differences can change the flavor profile quite a bit.

                          In no particular order, and off the top of my head:

                          Dry White Vermouth & similar Aperitifs
                          Riserva Carlo Alberto Vermut Extra Dry
                          Perucchi Extra Dry Vermouth
                          Cocchi Americano Aperitivo
                          Dolin Dry
                          Carpano Dry
                          Lillet Blanc
                          Noilly Prat Dry is probably the best of the easily accessible and inexpensive generic ones

                          Blanc/Bianco Sweet White Vermouth
                          Carpano Bianco
                          Perucchi Bianco
                          Dolin Blanc
                          Contratto Bianco

                          I still haven't had enough of the Imbue products, but so far I have liked them, a lot. Especially the Bittersweet.
                          Imbue Classic Dry
                          Imbue Bittersweet
                          Imbue Petal & Thorn.

                          Oddballs that are excellent, but you may never see
                          Martini Riserva Speciale Ambrato
                          Rin Quin Quin a la Peche

                          While not vermouth, asssorted Genepi, Quinquina, Suze, etc. can make excellent martiniesque drinks that are very herbal, sometimes with bitter tones, that make for great before dinner aperitif and after dinner digestif cocktails.

                            1. m
                              mercurygirl re: JMF JMF, I loved the combo of gin and Cocchi Americano. I do enjoy a bit of bitterness! Suze is on my to-buy list so that I can make...

                              JMF, I loved the combo of gin and Cocchi Americano. I do enjoy a bit of bitterness!

                              Suze is on my to-buy list so that I can make white negronis with it.

                      2. tim irvine re: mercurygirl Just tried a bottle of Hadley and Sons. Softer than Citadelle, a hint of cucumber and some anise, and half the price. Quite good...

                        Just tried a bottle of Hadley and Sons. Softer than Citadelle, a hint of cucumber and some anise, and half the price. Quite good for a reasonably priced gin. Made in a South Carolina.

                        1. m
                          mercurygirl re: tim irvine I've never seen this in my area, but I will keep an eye out for it in my travels. Meanwhile, I will be buying another 1.75 liter...

                          I've never seen this in my area, but I will keep an eye out for it in my travels. Meanwhile, I will be buying another 1.75 liter bottle of Citadelle, which costs $37 at the best bargain place in the city. I am always amazed at what a value this is!

                          In other news, I've noticed that my humble neighborhood liquor store has Boodles in a liter bottle for a good price, and I'm tempted to give it a go, based on the comments I've read here. I gather it's somewhat Plymouth-like, e.g., soft and smooth? They also stock Broker's, which I am keeping in mind as spring approaches (she says as it's snowing outside) and we look toward G&T season.

                          1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl I think Broker’s would be very good in a G & T. I found the absence of a citrus element in Boodles kind of strange. I found...

                            I think Broker’s would be very good in a G & T. I found the absence of a citrus element in Boodles kind of strange. I found it made a poor martini. It rocks in a gin fizz. BTW you are getting a great price on Citadelle!

                            1. m
                              mercurygirl re: tim irvine Well, I bought the Boodles and last night made my usual martini-ish drink by pairing it 1:1 with Lillet Blanc. I have to agree with...

                              Well, I bought the Boodles and last night made my usual martini-ish drink by pairing it 1:1 with Lillet Blanc. I have to agree with you that the effect is a bit strange, or at least quite different from what I'm used to in this drink.

                              But tonight I used it in a Blue Moon, which I am sipping as I type this, and it's delightful. So perhaps I will reserve the Boodles for citrusy shaken cocktails such as this one and go with Citadelle or Bluecoat (or a player to be named later) for my Lillet martinis. Hey, we need more than one gin in our repertoire and our cupboard, right?

                              1. m
                                mercurygirl re: mercurygirl Call me a glutton for punishment, but I tried the Boodles + Lillet again. It was a constructive exercise, because it helped me define...

                                Call me a glutton for punishment, but I tried the Boodles + Lillet again. It was a constructive exercise, because it helped me define the sensation of it — to my palate, it tastes flat, almost stale. I'm thinking the citrus is necessary to give a little zing to it, and that's what's missing here.

                                1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl Nicely captured. I briefly enjoyed Wild June. It has a good juniper note without being aggressive and lacked the over the top...

                                  Nicely captured. I briefly enjoyed Wild June. It has a good juniper note without being aggressive and lacked the over the top cubeb and cardamom notes that are so popular, but it also lacked citrus and is rolling out of the rotation. It reminds me of the book Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. Acidic notes are so important.

                                  1. JMF re: mercurygirl I switched around 10-12 years ago to only using a lemon twist in Martini's. No olives, never any brine, or onions. I think the tiny...

                                    I switched around 10-12 years ago to only using a lemon twist in Martini's. No olives, never any brine, or onions. I think the tiny bit of lemon oils brings out the botanicals better in most gin, and radically improve flabby or overly smooth ones. I also think that orange bitters improve them greatly. there's a reason the older versions of the martini were gin, dry vermouth, orange bitters with a lemon twist; stirred good and long for a silky texture.

                                    (I stir for at least 30 seconds, sometimes up to a minute. There is solid research behind this concerning temperature, dilution, etc. I think I wrote details many years ago here on CH.)

                                    I like Angostura Orange bitters or Regans Orange, or a 1:1 combination premixed of those two orange bitters.

                                    I also use a lemon twist in many if not most, of my Manhattan variationsas well, especially with some of the sweeter bourbons and ryes, but also if I use an amaro instead of vermouth.

                                    The rare times I use an Italian candied cherry like Luxardo Marasca cherries, Fabbri Amarena cherries, Lazzaroni Amarena/Amaretto cherries or Toschi black cherries, or the Trader Joes, which may be Fabbri or Toschi brand, I rinse them first so the syrup clinging to them doesn't over sweeten the drink. My favorite are the Filthy Foods Black Cherries. They are in a class by themselves, Better texture, not as hard candied and larger size than the Luxardo. I never, ever, use the neon red American, bleached, dyed, and preserved "maraschino" cherries. Although the Filthy Foods brand is the best in that category as well, but the black cherries are better.

                                    https://www.filthyfood.com/store/inde...

                                    1. tim irvine re: JMF Hear! Hear! on the long stir. I routinely stir just under a minute. I like twists in martinis but also olives, but I do rinse...

                                      Hear! Hear! on the long stir. I routinely stir just under a minute. I like twists in martinis but also olives, but I do rinse them. The idea of a dirty martini is not a happy one. Next time I try an imbalanced gin (we are often trying new ones) I’ll triage it with a bit of orange bitters. Thanks!

                                      1. JMF re: tim irvine I've come to feel that the inclusion of orange bitters and lemon twist (or at least the expressed lemon oils) is what really makes...

                                        I've come to feel that the inclusion of orange bitters and lemon twist (or at least the expressed lemon oils) is what really makes a martini. It just feels brighter and more lively. This is what was considered the recipe from around the late 1800's to early 1900's, with an occasional olive added as well. But the olives really became more the norm, with lemon disappearing, around 1930-50's.

                                        Of course talking history about some cocktails is difficult. Martini being one of the most difficult to place exact info on a location and timeline.

                                        1. tim irvine re: JMF How sad to have come from such a noble cocktail to the place where you can order a martini in a bar and, unless you are specific...

                                          How sad to have come from such a noble cocktail to the place where you can order a martini in a bar and, unless you are specific beyond measure, there is a good chance they’ll pour frozen vodka to the rim of one of those large v shaped glasses, drop an olive in it, pour a splash of brine in it, and charge you twelve dollars.

                                      2. m
                                        mercurygirl re: JMF Thanks for your expert and detailed advice! I did indeed use a lemon twist and a dash of Regan's orange bitters in my Boodles...

                                        Thanks for your expert and detailed advice!

                                        I did indeed use a lemon twist and a dash of Regan's orange bitters in my Boodles martini, and I stirred it for at least a minute, but it still seemed flat to me, so I'm thinking it must be the Boodles that was to blame. Tonight's martini will be made with Bluecoat, so there surely will be no shortage of citrus notes! :)

                                        I have yet to purchase any candied or brandied cherries, but I will keep your recommendations in mind when I do. The last time I made a Blue Moon, I realized that the recipe I was using called for a cherry at the bottom of the glass. It tasted just fine without it, but I imagine the cherry must provide a subtle counterpoint to the lemon juice in the drink.

                                        1. JMF re: mercurygirl I never had any issues with Boodles. it was the gin that I first fell for when I was in my early 20's, always just on the rocks...

                                          I never had any issues with Boodles. it was the gin that I first fell for when I was in my early 20's, always just on the rocks. Maybe use a few dashes of the bitters. (I like Angostura Orange much better. I think it is much more complex.) I feel just one dash of bitters is never enough for any cocktail.

                                          But I do like sharper or more bold gin in cocktails. The smoother ones just don't do it for me. And some are so smooth they are more like mildly gin flavored vodka, such as Bulldog. boring stuff.

                                          I use dropper bottles and use 1/4 of a dropper as a dash. I like these bottles for bitters. I also use atomizer bottles to coat glasses, or to garnish the top of a cocktail with bitters/absinthe/liqueur/amaro/vermouth. The amount you use is much more consistent with a dropper bottle. Dashers vary so much depending upon how hard you shake, how full the bottle is, and different brands.
                                          https://www.specialtybottle.com/glass...

                                          I don't really love Lillet, maybe that is what isn't working in the cocktail? I find it a bit thin and simple tasting.

                                          1. m
                                            mercurygirl re: JMF It's a good thing that I do love Lillet (and Cocchi too), since I've learned that vermouth does not agree with me. I've tried Dolin...

                                            It's a good thing that I do love Lillet (and Cocchi too), since I've learned that vermouth does not agree with me. I've tried Dolin and Vya (both dry) and ended up with a lingering headache.

                                            When I came home with my half-bottle of Dolin, I wanted to sip it by itself to really know what it tasted like. So I opened the bottle and poured some into a white-wine glass over ice, filling it halfway. I found it delicious and at that point imagined myself enjoying it thusly on many future occasions. But a short time later I developed a headache that lasted for several hours. The fact that I drank no other alcohol that day and that I consumed a very moderate quantity of the Dolin led me to conclude that the vermouth was the culprit. I never tried the Vya by itself, only in martinis, but again got a headache after one or two drinks. I should mention that I am not at all prone to headaches, generally speaking, and that martinis made with Lillet or Cocchi have caused me no such ill effects.

                                            It makes me sad that I cannot enjoy "classic" martinis. But as long as there are other aromatized wines that I can tolerate, all will be well. Sitting here sipping my Citadelle and Cocchi (with orange bitters and lemon twist), I do not feel the least bit deprived! :)

                                            1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl Sounds like me and dark chocolate. Good thing you figured it out!

                                              Sounds like me and dark chocolate. Good thing you figured it out!

                          2. m
                            mercurygirl On the garnish front, tonight I made my 50/50 with an orange twist for what I'm pretty sure was the first time. Between the Bluecoat...

                            On the garnish front, tonight I made my 50/50 with an orange twist for what I'm pretty sure was the first time. Between the Bluecoat gin, the Lillet blanc and the twist, I've gone all in on the orange, and it's delectable. Didn't see a need for orange bitters this time. :)

                            1. tim irvine Just curious...most of the gins discussed (Citadelle, Hendricks, Mare, Botanist, etc.) are “new” style gins as opposed to London...

                              Just curious...most of the gins discussed (Citadelle, Hendricks, Mare, Botanist, etc.) are “new” style gins as opposed to London Dry gins. Anyone have thoughts on the old guard (Beefeaters, Tanq, Gilbeys, etc.)?

                              5 Replies
                              1. TroyTempest re: tim irvine I prefer an "old school" martini, with London Dry gin. I want to taste the juniper. Lately it is 3 parts Beefeaters to 1 Dolin...

                                I prefer an "old school" martini, with London Dry gin. I want to taste the juniper.
                                Lately it is 3 parts Beefeaters to 1 Dolin Dry and a twist. Just like my Dad used to, except he used Noilly Prat. And his was drier.
                                He was one of those rinse the glass with Vermouth guys.

                                FWIW, my regular gin for Gin and Tonics is Gordons.

                                1. JMF re: tim irvine I'm a big fan of the traditional London Dry Gin's. I have to honestly say I like almost all of them. While as to the the new style...

                                  I'm a big fan of the traditional London Dry Gin's. I have to honestly say I like almost all of them. While as to the the new style western gins, I like very few. (The following are excellent: Tuthilltown Half Moon, Barr Hill, Greenhook, all the North Shore offerings, and a few more.)

                                  Of the London Dry. one of my favorites because of how clean it is, is Gordon's. American version. I really like the British version as well, but they are different.

                                  I enjoy Beefeaters clean mineral tone. Tanqueray is simple, but with a larger body than I expect from the few botanicals. Boodles so traditional that is almost a caricature of itself, and the gin that made me love gin when I was 20.

                                  Seagram's is great, halfway between a London Dry and new Western, more to the LD side of the two.

                                  1. m
                                    mercurygirl re: tim irvine Beefeater was the first gin I bought when I began my gin exploration last year. It was my late aunt's choice for her nightly martini...

                                    Beefeater was the first gin I bought when I began my gin exploration last year. It was my late aunt's choice for her nightly martini, and I regard it as an exemplary/benchmark London Dry. I would not hesitate to use it in any recipe that called for gin, or to specify it when ordering any gin-based drink. I've seen it on the back bar in the bar of many a good restaurant (I generally sit at a table and drink wine, but I always take a look at the gin selection on my way in or out of the place, out of academic interest :) ), often alongside Hendrick's, which is much less versatile IMVHO.

                                    I've only drunk Tanqueray in G&Ts, back in the '80s-'90s when it was de rigueur to call for a Tanqueray and tonic. It always tasted good to me in that context and within my very limited experience of gin, but I haven't tasted it in recent years or tried it in anything other than a G&T.

                                    The next London Dry on my to-try list is Broker's. I expect good things from it, based on the Chowhound consensus. I'd also like to try Hayman's London Dry, which seems to get much less attention and be less widely distributed than its Old Tom.

                                    1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl I’m fond of Broker’s but just snagged a bottle of Beefeater. Just a few more hours...

                                      I’m fond of Broker’s but just snagged a bottle of Beefeater. Just a few more hours...

                                      1. JMF re: mercurygirl I like Broker's, the taste is medium light and complex. Hints of juniper, very faint citrus, flowers, and spice (cinnamon, nutmeg...

                                        I like Broker's, the taste is medium light and complex. Hints of juniper, very faint citrus, flowers, and spice (cinnamon, nutmeg) come through. It is very well balanced with no one flavor coming through more so than any other. While this is a classic London Dry style gin, it also is very smooth with no sharp notes and no burn. It is so enjoyably smooth it almost has an oily texture to it.

                                    2. tim irvine Okay. We’ve conducted our usual scientific study. Beefeater and Dolin, first at 2:1 and then at 3:1. It is exquisite. Plenty...

                                      Okay. We’ve conducted our usual scientific study. Beefeater and Dolin, first at 2:1 and then at 3:1. It is exquisite. Plenty of juniper, moderate citrus, subtle others. Smooth and tasty. We love it in a traditional martini.

                                      1. tim irvine You take a very straightforward London dry, in this case Beefeater, and make your usual martini, in this case 3:1. Make the first...

                                        You take a very straightforward London dry, in this case Beefeater, and make your usual martini, in this case 3:1. Make the first batch with Vya and the second with Dolin. The difference is much greater than when you do the same with a lot of more complex gins. Interesting comparison. I’m not saying it’s revelatory, just interesting. Cheers. BTW, I think my next exploration may be the accompanying nibbles. Tonight we have Triscuits and smoked Gouda.

                                        7 Replies
                                        1. a
                                          am47 re: tim irvine Hi Tim, I'm not a big martini drinker in general, because they pack such a wallop, but of the more unusual gins I've tried lately...

                                          Hi Tim,

                                          I'm not a big martini drinker in general, because they pack such a wallop, but of the more unusual gins I've tried lately I really love the No. 3 London Dry Gin and Fords London Dry Gin in 3:1 and 4:1 ratios with Dolin. Just some suggestions for you!

                                          Cheers,
                                          Andrew

                                          1. tim irvine re: am47 I think Beefeater is to gin as Evan Williams 1783 is to bourbon. Delicious, classic, and a heck of a good deal.

                                            I think Beefeater is to gin as Evan Williams 1783 is to bourbon. Delicious, classic, and a heck of a good deal.

                                            1. a
                                              am47 re: tim irvine For sure, Beefeater is outstanding and a total bargain. It's one of my three staple gins – with Tanqueray and Plymouth. The Beefeater...

                                              For sure, Beefeater is outstanding and a total bargain. It's one of my three staple gins – with Tanqueray and Plymouth. The Beefeater is also outstanding in a negroni, damned good in a Tom Collins, and my favorite for a Ramos Gin Fizz. For certain other drinks I prefer the subtlety of the Plymouth or the assertiveness of the Tanq, depending. My favorites with the Plymouth are the Bramble, Sloe Gin Fizz, Singapore Sling, and Corpse Reviver #2. The Tanqueray, meanwhile, works best in G&Ts and French 75s.

                                              1. tim irvine re: am47 Never had a Sloe gin fizz, but I like a regular gin fizz with a soft gin like Plymouth or Boodles. I like pretty much your entire...

                                                Never had a Sloe gin fizz, but I like a regular gin fizz with a soft gin like Plymouth or Boodles. I like pretty much your entire list. Ever make a Negroni with Punt e Mes?

                                                1. a
                                                  am47 re: tim irvine Never have, but I'll give it a shot. Generally I don't drink Negronis very often but instead make them for guests who actually like...

                                                  Never have, but I'll give it a shot. Generally I don't drink Negronis very often but instead make them for guests who actually like Campari. ;)

                                                  The best use I've found for Punt e Mes is in a Red Hook, which along with the Brooklyn, is probably my favorite Manhattan variation. It's just delicious:

                                                  http://imbibemagazine.com/red-hook-re...

                                                  1. tim irvine re: am47 My son in law tinkers with Negroni and Manhattan recipes and enjoys substituting Aperol. I’d think the lightness of Aperol as compared...

                                                    My son in law tinkers with Negroni and Manhattan recipes and enjoys substituting Aperol. I’d think the lightness of Aperol as compared with Campari and the heft of Punt e Mes might work. I like substituting it in a Manhattan and didn’t know it had a name. Cheers. Only ten more hours until the cocktail hour in Texas! Time now for eggs and coffee.

                                                    1. a
                                                      am47 re: tim irvine No excuses, Tim. A Ramos Gin Fizz is one of the finest breakfast/brunch drinks known to mankind. There's no need to wait until 5...

                                                      No excuses, Tim. A Ramos Gin Fizz is one of the finest breakfast/brunch drinks known to mankind. There's no need to wait until 5 p.m.!

                                                      Seriously, though, there should be no qualms about having a Gin Fizz or Corpse Reviver #2 before midday. They're designed to gently prod the weary, hungover brunch-goer back to some semblance of consciousness, after all.

                                        2. m
                                          mercurygirl Reviving this venerable thread to report on my latest martini-ish adventures. Hope all my fellow ginhounds are safe and well...

                                          Reviving this venerable thread to report on my latest martini-ish adventures. Hope all my fellow ginhounds are safe and well!

                                          I am out of my beloved Citadelle and not yet ready to make another online booze order (which would require hitting a $99 or $199 minimum to get free shipping). So I surveyed the gin offerings of FreshDirect and decided to try Bombay (endorsed by Tim!), which was on sale. I am liking it very much with Lillet!

                                          On the food pairings: During the Stay at Home period (which is still pretty much in effect here), I derived daily delight from David Lebovitz's "Apero Hour" Instagram Live segments and bought his latest book, Drinking French, in hard copy and Kindle versions. I ended up making gougeres and becoming completely hooked on them as an aperitif accompaniment, as my incipient muffin top will attest. I am now trying to transition to slightly healthier choices, e.g., grape tomatoes and haricots verts dipped in homemade mayonnaise.

                                          1 Reply
                                          1. tim irvine re: mercurygirl The accompaniments sound divine! We have settled in to Bombay white as our "go to" martini gin, unless there is a great deal on...

                                            The accompaniments sound divine! We have settled in to Bombay white as our "go to" martini gin, unless there is a great deal on Beefeater's. They both really hit that juniper and citrus sweet spot. We like Dolin dry, 3:1, but both gins would stand up well to a bianco rather than a dry. Lately I have also enjoyed them in negronis with Cocchi.

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