Help wanted with a tentative itinerary for Yountville/Napa + SF in late August
We're coming in from NY to explore Napa Valley and the Bay Area for about a week (most likely arriving at SFO or OAK on the afternoon of Saturday, August 23). Here's what I have so far:
Saturday, August 23
Dinner – Bouchon
Sunday, August 24
Lunch – The French Laundry
Dinner – Ad Hoc or Redd
Monday, August 25
Lunch – ZuZu
Dinner – Ubuntu
Tuesday, August 26
Lunch – In-N-Out (on the way to SF)
Dinner – Yank Sing (or other Dim Sum place)
Wednesday, August 27
Lunch – The Slanted Door (not sure about this one)
Dinner – Aziza
Thursday, August 28
Lunch – Bar Tartine (not sure about this one)
Dinner – Chez Panisse
We may also stay Friday as well, so if anyone has additional suggestions for a casual lunch and dinner, please speak up! In terms of food preferences, we're up for pretty much anything. However, I'd probably avoid places like Fleur de Lys and Gary Danko, since I can go to Jean Georges, Le Bernardin etc. any other time throughout the year. Probably no sushi places either; Sushi Yasuda is my go-to back home, and Kurumazushi, Sushi Seki, Ushi Wakamaru etc. are also easily accessible.
Thanks for your help!
hcbk0702
Jun 26, 2008 12:29PM
After lunch at TFL, I would be surprised if you want dinner. If you do, be aware that Ad Hoc is a fixed price meal with four courses, served family style, and the portions are large. Redd is terrific but, after TFL, you're probably going to want to order light and may not get the full experience. Frankly, I'd eliminate Bouchon (or go there for lunch) and go to Redd that night instead. If you do anticipate wanting dinner after TFL, go to Ubuntu that night.
You are aware that Chez Panisse, also a set fixed price menu, is across the bay in Berkeley. I don't know what time you're planning on going but the commute traffic across the bay bridge can be frightful. Not sure how close the nearest BART station is, but give that a thought. Though they're really not similar, if you decide to skip Chez Panisse, consider Zuni Cafe--unique to San Francisco, in my view.
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I forgot this in my earlier post. Why do you want to go to In N Out? Yes, it's a cut above McDonalds, Burger King and the like but if you really want a burger, fries and a shake, go to Taylor's Refresher in St. Helena or the branch in the Ferry Building in SF. Instead, I'd stop in Sausalito and enjoy the views of San Francisco from one of the restaurants there. Just opened in Fort Baker, right beneath the GG Bridge, is a restaurant lodge called Cavallo Point. No reviews yet, but it's a gorgeous setting.
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It's probably not the burger, it's In and Out. In LA it's Pink's and Tommy's. In NY it's Grey's Papaya and in Detroit, it's Lafayette Coney Island. "Who can explain it, who can tell you why."
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Yeah, you're probably right. I just don't want them to be disappointed. I think of them sitting there looking out on the parking lot of a shopping center listening to the roar of traffic on either 101 or interstate 80 (depending on which way they come) while just a few miles away is the picturesque village of Sausalito with it's views of the City. Oh, well.
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Am I the only one who doesn't get Taylor's Refresher? I wouldn't say it's a horrible burger, but it is nothing to write home about. Wine at a burger joint is cool and all, but the only thing impressive about the wine list at Taylor's is that it's at a burger joint.
RE In-N-Out: You can eat there without leaving Napa!
In-N-Out warning: In-N-Out gets worse the further you get from Southern California. You really can't get the same experience in NoCal.
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Although with their schedule it may be a little early.
820 W Imola Ave Napa CA
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I never quite got Taylor's Refresher either. They do use quality beef and it generally tasty...but the burger is small, the bun weird and it's not cheap. A plain burger, coke and fries runs you $11 bucks. Another bun and 2 more oz of beef and it "could" be very good. The one plus is they're open until 10 p.m. (Ferry Bldg...never been to Napa) and past 6 p.m. it's very easy.
re: InO...I don't sense much difference between NorCal and SoCal...I grew up in SoCal but I've never compared them critically...at $1.50 for single..it's sort of pointless to me.
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I don't know about the HAMburger but the AHI TUNA burger is tast-y.
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How is the ahi burger? Is it marinated? Ahi tends to dry if not prepared carefully so I tend to avoid it in sandwiches.
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The Ahi burger is my choice as well; disgustingly rare with an unctuous ginger slaw -- all far from dry.
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To me, Taylor's is bizarrely expensive for the average quality. The food's okay, which makes it better than most tourist traps, but as far as I'm concerned that's what it is.
In-N-Out is a Los Angeles institution. Eating at one in the Bay Area is much like eating at the Boudin cafe at the Disneyland Fisherman's Wharf.
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A few questions, Robert...
Have you eaten at Taylor's St. Helena location, or the Ferry Building or Oxbow locations? Do you find the food varies from location to location?
Did you have the ahi tuna burger?
Have you found a difference in the food between the LA and SF Bay Area In-n-Out locations? Can you describe it?
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The quality and character of In 'n' Out's food is discussed on the Chains board. In my limited experience, their food is consistently mediocre, but I've only eaten there when the only alternative was an even worse chain, such as McDonald's.
I ate at the original Taylor's (before people started calling undercooked tuna "ahi") and at the Ferry Plaza branch. Even its fans tend to admit that the food's nothing very special.
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In-N-Out: But I was curious about *your* comment and your personal taste experiences vis a vis LA vs.SF Bay Area In-N-Out locations. Can you comment on the difference in food between the two metropolitan areas?
Taylors: It is ahi, is it not? Or is it tuna, not of the ahi type, cooked like ahi tuna? Is this preparation -- slightly seared, basically raw -- that you don't like, or Taylor's preparation of ahi tuna that you don't like?
Forgive me for all the questions, but I'm trying to decipher your tone and subtext, and it's better to just ask you straight out.
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I absolutely don't get Taylor's either. What on earth is it doing in the Ferry Building? It sticks out like a sore thumb. A gross, greasy, fast-food sore thumb. Apparently the original location is supposed to be good, but the FB location was simply awful, and it seems to me to be the antithesis of what the Ferry Building Marketplace is supposed to be about.
On my one visit, I had the misfortune to get to the FB after all the other food purveyors had closed, and the only one open was Taylor's. OK, how bad could it be? Answer: Inedible burnt burger. (What part of "medium rare" did the cook not get?). I sent it back; the replacement was not burnt, but was not medium rare either. Lackluster green salad. Greasy fries.
With all the other places in the FB, I am flabbergasted that anyone goes to Taylor's voluntarily. In-N-Out is no great prize, but it's better that the FB Taylor's and is about 1/4 the price. (Taylors: burger, salad, fries = $20 without drink).
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As has already been said, don't have dinner plans after lunch at TFL, you may not want anything at all, if you do, just have drinks and snacks at the bar somewhere. I'd schedule your Ad Hoc dinner the night before TFL, instead of Bouchon (and make it an early dinner). You can't get dim sum for lunch, so if that's what you want, move Slanted Door to dinner on Tuesday and have dim sum for lunch on Wednesday. (Yank Sing is a fine choice, there are lots of others to choose from, though). Also, Bar Tartine isn't open for lunch, so if you want to eat there, move that to dinner either Friday night (if you stay that long) or have dinner there Thursday night and lunch at Chez Panisse (this would only be the cafe upstairs, which is great, but not the downstairs more formal restaurant). I would stick with dinner at Chez Panisse, though, and have dinner at Bar Tartine either the next night or the previous night.
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Before you decide on dinner at Bar Tartine (as suggested by someone above), check out the menu on their website. It's a really casual place with, at least as far as I'm concerned, kiind of an unusual and limited dinner menu. I don't think of it as a dinner restaurant but a breakfast or brunch kind of place. Maybe I'm alone in this. I'd go next door to Delfina for dinner if I was in that neighborhood.
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Bar Tartine is not the same as Tartine bakery. Bar Tartine does not have a limited menu, and is only open for dinner most days, and brunch on weekends.
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Thanks for correcting me. I'll try it for dinner sometime.
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Dinner menu Bar Tartine.
http://www.tartinebakery.com/barTarti...
Better than In and Out.
561 Valencia St San Francisco CA
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It looks like for you're Napa stay, you're trying to group restaurants geographically. Unless you're somehow limited by your mode of transportation, I wouldn't bother. I agree with the people who say you're not going to want an Ad Hoc/Redd kind of dinner after lunch at TFL. I suggest that your plan for that night be to go to St. Helena and wander around (it's a charming small town), then go to Martini House and have drinks and a light meal on the terrace -- a very California wine country experience. Drop Bouchon (you've got plenty of French bistros in NY), and do Redd/Ad Hoc Saturday.
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I agree with dropping Bouchon and I'm a former Bouchon lover. Their kitchen is being remodeled and the restaurant is really off its game. Truly. I'm not sure they'll be back on their game by the end of August. Even when I was a true Bouchon lover, I always sat at the bar (the only place, IMO) as the bad acoustics in the tables area make it so you can't hear your dining companions, but you can hear the person at the table next to you.
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We also used to love Bouchon, especially last year, but do not like the place at all this year: it has gone downhill. Both the service (very uncaring)and the food were disappointing now.
We did like Ad Hoc, a lot.
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Thanks for all the great advice! Here's a revised list:
Saturday, August 23
Dinner – Ad Hoc
Sunday, August 24
Lunch – The French Laundry
Dinner – Ubuntu
Monday, August 25
Lunch – ZuZu
Dinner – Redd
Tuesday, August 26
Lunch – In-N-Out
Dinner – ???
Wednesday, August 27
Lunch – Yank Sing
Dinner – Aziza
Thursday, August 28
Lunch – Zuni Cafe
Dinner – Chez Panisse
It seems like there isn't much enthusiasm for Bouchon on this board, so I'll most likely drop it. I'll probably put Ad Hoc in its stead.
Our reservation at TFL is at 11 AM, so I think we'll be able to manage a light, late dinner pretty easily (also, my brother is a glutton, though he doesn't look it). Would Ubuntu be a good choice for that?
Any thoughts on Redd vs. Terra or Martini House? From the reports I've seen, it looks like Redd is the most well liked.
As for In-N-Out, we're going there knowing exactly what to expect, just a fast food joint. I'm mostly interested in trying it since Californians are always talking about it, and I'd like to see how it compares to the Shake Shack in NYC. It's been a while since I've had a Shack burger though, since the lines are usually hilarious during peak times (1 hour 30 min+).
Any suggestions for alternatives to ZuZu, Yank Sing, or Zuni Cafe? Or are those three decent choices?
And lastly, I'm not sure what to do for Tuesday dinner. I guess I could put The Slanted Door there, but if anyone has another idea, I'm definitely up for it.
Thanks for all the help!
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I would do Bar Tartine that night, since you have nothing in the Mission and I love the food there, or you could stick with Slanted Door. FYI, for Chez Panisse, call one month to the day in advance for reservations. The rest of these places you can get reservations on Open Table, but you can also call the restaurant directly if they don't have a time that works for you.
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ZuZu Yank Sing and Zuni are all "decent choices." I will give you the standard Yank Sing caveat that (1) it's not traditional dim sum but rather more modern/"nouvelle" dim sum, and (2) it's expensive. Figure $35 per person (or more, depending on how many of their "specials" you order).
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Yank Sing has all the traditional dim sum items in addition to more original dim sum and traditional dishes not usually served as dim sum (like Peking duck). Most of the items I usually order you find at most dim sum places:
steamed Chinese broccoli - traditional
sticky rice in lotus leaf - traditional
turnip cake - traditional
taro dumplings - traditional
cheung fun (soft rice noodle rolls) - traditional
chicken-mushroom fun gwor - ? not sure
mushroom caps stuffed with pork and tarragon - original
roast eggplant - not common as a dim sum item
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Yeah, but no one (except, apparently, you) goes to Yank Sing for traditional dim sum -- that would be missing the whole point. You can round out your meal with those dishes, but it would be silly to focus on them if you're looking for one, great dim sum experience.
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I have to say, I know lots of people who go to Yank Sing for traditional dim sum. Maybe that's silly and missing the point, but it's full of people for lunch who are having and enjoying the traditional items.
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I know our family and friends go there for the traditional items but also enjoy their variations or creations. Their service cannot be denied, simply the best, and yes, it'll cost you.
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I wouldn't necessarily do Ad Hoc unless you check the menu ahead of time, and you like what's being offered (maybe make dual reservations and cancel one at the last minute). No real need to go to Bouchon, but you can check out the bakery next door for some on the road treats. If you have time to drive to Healdsburg, I would highly recommend Cyrus (amazing food and value). In SF, I think you should consider Ame, exemplary of new american fusion. also I second Zuni, Bar Tartine, Coi. Not a fan of Slanted Door. I think you will enjoy your food trip!
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In SF, I think you should consider Ame, exemplary of new american fusion. Zuni for the chicken, Bar Tartine for the porkbelly, Ubuntu for the cauliflower, Coi since it sounds like you like more unusual fare.
Ubuntu is in the City of Napa.
OP already knew that.
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One part of the fun at Ad Hoc is to be open minded and to be willing to eat what they serve that night. I love just walking in, not knowing what I am going to be served, before I am there. I have so far not had a single disappointing dinner there (our first visit to Ad Hoc was in June last year) and we just came back from California (to NYC) and we loved AD Hoc again.
It is also good to know that Ad Hoc does have some fish reserved for diners who do not eat red meat or fowl. My husband does not, so he always gets fish there. It has been excellent.
We were disappointed with Bouchon. It used to be so good: it used to be much "more" than just another bistro. No more.
Personally, I think it is very selfish to make dual reservations and then cancel at the last minute on a whim. You are not the only person out there trying to make dinner plans, ankimo. Be considerate.
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I wouldn't do The French Laundry and Ubuntu on the same day, even if Ubuntu is veggie. It will be sort of a wasted trip. The most you'll probably want to eat is something simple like pho, soba, tapas or a salad around 8 p.m....maybe split a burger later, later on. I'd do Slanted Door for dinner Tuesday.
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I agree that I would do Slanted Door on Tuesday.
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A couple of the small dishes at Ubuntu -- the cauliflower, the almonds, the beets -- might be perfect after the French Laundry.
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That makes sense. I still contend it would be sort of a wasted trip not getting the full experience but the quality is there. I'd make the reservation later, like 8 or 9.
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I'm not at all a fan of Zuzu. Much better options available.
And, I'd place both Terra and Martini House above Redd.
Oh - In 'n' Out Burger is fun. Do it! There's this special lingo you can use when you order...here, check it out -- you can order something "animal style":
http://www.in-n-out.com/secretmenu.asp
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Zuni is more than decent, IMO, but I am not sure I would do it on the same day as Chez Panisse; for me it would be too heavy on the California influence, and too much time sitting in restaurants when there is a city to explore (both tend to be somewhere to linger over a multi course meal that is served in a leisurely fashion)....what about Zuni for dinner Tuesday? You could leave your lunch open for exploring based on where you happen to be in the City when you got hungry on Thursday.
Another possibility would be to try La Ciccia for dinner Tuesday night, especially if Sardinian food isn't that common in NY, and particularly if you will have access to a car. It is definitely a different vibe and food style than anything else on your list. I'd suggest Incanto also, but it is closed Tuesdays, IIRC.
Adding some links
1658 Market St, San Francisco, CA 94102, USA
291 30th St, San Francisco, CA 94131, USA
1517 Shattuck Ave, Berkeley, CA 94709, USA
101 Spear St, San Francisco, CA 94105, USA
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Another possibility would be to try La Ciccia for dinner Tuesday night, especially if Sardinian food isn't that common in NY
Based on a recent Manhattan thread you have a good point.
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/526773
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I have done the lunch at FL -- I seriously could not eat until the next morning. I would be REALLY surprised if you wanted anything that evening other than some fruit and/or cheese that evening. I would replace Monday's Redd with Ubuntu (since Ubuntu is not open for lunch right now). Redd will be too similar in technique and sentiments with FL (but not quality). Ubuntu is remarkably different.
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Lunch at French Laundry won't end until around 4:30 or 5:00. You won't be hungry for a major meal. You could always go to Bouchon and have some oysters around 10 pm.
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Without a doubt, In-n-Out over Taylor's. In fact, Thomas Keller, famed chef of The French Laundry and Ad Hoc, loves In-n-Out Burgers.
Here's his actual statement from a magazine interview:
I really respect a company that holds its ground when there is so much pressure to follow the "what’s next, what’s new" trend. In-N-Out’s quality lies in the simplicity of what it promises and delivers. To be able to do something over and over with integrity and excellence, even if it is fast food, is something to be truly admired.
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Keller didn't express an opinion about the burgers, he just said he respects the company. That sounds like he's speaking as a businessman, not a consumer.
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I've seen him eat there. I can attest that he likes the burgers...
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Keller has talked about the burgers and fries and how much he loves the place in several interviews.
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Does he eat the fries? Their crude and ill-conceived cooking method pretty much guarantees they come out mealy.
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I've seen him eat fries, yes.
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you can ask for them "extra crispy". a secret that's not on their secret menu. that makes them better but burgers are still their strong suit.
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You can also ask for them "well done".
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Even lesser known is that you can order your fries "animal style." Fries, cheese, grilled onions, and, i think, the sauce.
Healthy? Maybe not. Spectacularly indulgent? Absolutely.
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