What am I missing at the French Laundry?
Had lunch with my husband at the French Laundry a while back. A nice meal, great service, but didn't rock my world and it is still bugging me. I keep hearing other chefs rave about what a visionary Thomas Keller is, but I'm not sure why. I've read some of the threads about whether people have enjoyed the restaurant or not, but I'm still trying to understand why people who like Thomas Keller's cooking think it is so amazing. (I am really on quest to understand what this is about and not being facetious.)
Some of it may just not being able to live up to the hype, but I was still really surprised. I've eaten at some other hyped places, but haven't had this type of experience. I had my first really good meal at Taillevent and I think I could still remember just about every course and finally getting what French technique was about. When I eat at Chez Panisse, I get what unfussy technique and ingredients that could stand up and sing arias is about. At Gary Danko, I get the best relationship between food and wine that I've experienced anywhere. Etc, etc, etc. What I am supposed to be getting at the French Laundry that I'm not? I know his cooking is incredibly labor intensive, but to what end?
Can anyone enlighten me?
ravioli
Sep 25, 2007 10:56AM
Not sure if this helps or not, but in Keller's own words, "it's all about finesse."
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Interesting - thank you! I'm not sure I understand what that means but it explains why I may have missed a suble point.
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I can't enlighten you, only agree with you. My visit a few years back.
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/24828...
To me FL is about technique and perfection. For me that didn't translate into flavor, but I like more rustic cooking where the flavor pops. If you want outstanding food/wine pairing go to The Dining Room at The Ritz ... not rustic, of course but intense flavor.
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I totally agree with the experience you had -- elegant, but lacking in soul and passion. I'm glad I went, but clearly missed the point.
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That was my problem, too - I thought everything was technically perfect, but it was just that - technical. It didn't make me get on the phone immediately after and call friends to talk about the meal I just had (which is what I did after an unbelievable meal at Alinea in Chicago, where the food is arguably even more technical) It was also so much more expensive than the second most expensive meal I'd ever had (again, Alinea) that I was expecting it to be proportionately better.
I thought about it a lot afterwards - I think part of the disappointment is that I had heard so much and read so much about TFL beforehand that a) expectations were sky-high and b) nothing seemed "new" or innovative (even though I recognized that many things were innovative when they were first developed, TK's influence is broad enough that I'd seen adaptations of many dishes elsewhere). The other major contributor was the wine - none of us were especially wine-savvy and put all of our trust in the sommelier to come up with something within our budget (admittedly on the low side, at $60 pp - but again, I'll draw a comparison to Alinea, where I'd had a fantastic pairing for $55). The red he chose was a fruit bomb of a Californian syrah (at $60 for a half bottle, which I thought was absurd) that really didn't do anything for the food. Service was lovely and friendly, and the food was perfectly done, and yet I left feeling just a little bit disappointed.
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The one thing that surprises me is that over three years later the reports I read about FL are almost identical to what I ate. I'm not that into innovative, but still. It is the thing that makes Gary Danko not so interesting to me. Other than the changes to seasonal veggies, the menu seems static. I only ate there once, so maybe things change more than I know, but IIRC, the most recent report had a lot of what I had for my lunch.
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I have to agree that my experience at FL was a little, um, underwhelming.
My sticking point echoes daveena's experience re the sommelier. Our experience with him (March 2007) was unimpressive and points to a major flaw in their format, in my opinion: when you have a set menu, why can't the sommelier (or the menu) suggest a pairing based on your order? Instead, we were given the old "what do you like in a wine" routine, which I consider poor form. That he was being unctous about it left a bad taste to the evening.
I contrast this with an excellent experience at Union Square (in NYC). The sommelier (who was on is day off, we found out later) walks by us as we are looking at our selections and offers to help us with any pairing. He was totally friendly, did not "push" anything at us, and made excellent choices.
Maybe I am mistaken, but I feel I should be able to rely on a sommellier for help instead of feeling like I am part of the up-sell. Granted, the atmosphere is very efficient at FL, and just as TK monitors his kitchens with live video feeds (I'm sure his setup is technically top-notch), the experience felt very chilly and lacking in "soul."
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I guess I have to disagree by virtue of the fact that the sommelier will create a very personalized wine pairing based on the "routine" "what do you like in a wine" -- at a recent dinner at The Ritz in Pasadena, I was given the standard wine pairing which included a number of California wines which I am generally less impressed with. Had they asked beforehand, I could have told them I much prefer Rhone whites to Chardonnay which would have avoided the mediocre pairing I was subjected to.
At TFL, by being able to tell the sommelier that I tend to shun California wines, he actually thanked me as he was considering a California white but instead substituted a German one which was much preferred. The sommelier was helpful and gracious and I subsequently got an extremely thoughtful -- if not soulful! -- meal with pairing.
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I agree that a sommelier can be very helpful, so I do not disagree at all with the importance of relying on an expert for assistance. As for my experience at TFL (mentioned above), I wonder if you and I had the same sommelier and when you were there?
You describe your experience stating that you told your sommelier you did not like California wines; we told him we did not like certain varietals and asked for advice on what would pair well with our meal (minus the varietals we mentioned). So -- our situation was similar in that we stated what we did not really care for, and different in that your approach was regional.
My point in the original post was that a sommelier should a) be helpful (the one a TFL was trying) and b) when faced with a fixed menu, how can he not know the best pairings beforehand? Yes, there are hundreds of wines at TFL, but surely the options can be narrowed down based upon the menu.
TFL had been faulted in the past for lackluster sommeliers; god knows we were not looking for flaws at TFL, but I remain of the opinion that ours performed poorly. Should I get a chance to go there again, I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.
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Your experience is exactly what I fear will happen to me too! I haven't been and am hestitant to try. I have been to Chez Panisse (downstairs) more than a handful of times and my last two times I just felt the flavor was too "finessed." For instance I ordred a glass of fine white wine and the color was so pale and the flavor was too! Might as well been drinking water, and the fish on the menu that night was so "pale" it too was almost tasteless. I don't want to pay tons of money for such an experince. I've been to Campton Place, Fleur de Lys etc. and they have been quite memorable!
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My hubby is an anti-foodie (doesn't care about trends nor high-powered chefs), and his only comment about both CP and FL was: "Why are we eating here?" (because the flavors were so finessed that everything was pretty bland). I didn't dare tell him how much it costed. OTOH, we've had memorable meals at Cyrus, The Dining Room, and other places.
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Keller's philospohy has always been to let the ingredients shine through the preparation. He also has a strong emphasis on the visual appeal of a dish. the other element is perfect preparation of each item. I've had far more exotic dishes, and much more elaborate preps, but from the start of the meal to the end, I always leave with a grin on my face. If you enjoyed Taiilevent, It's a similar philosophy( not surprising as he apprenticed there a ways back
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No offense, but it sounds like your husband has it right. You can't enjoy the flavor of a trend.
Of course, I tend to oppose trends by nature. Things that are simply good for their own merits are rarely trendy.
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Yes, indeed. Trendy. Trends are bad.
The French Laundry has been going in its current incarnation since 1994 and Chez Pannise has been open since 1971.
Calling either restaurant or the food they make "trendy" is like saying that Shakespeare only wrote cliches.
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Wow, I feel so much less crazy reading all of these posts! We ate there in February, and I was left with a big feeling of "huh?" I've been meaning to post about it, but was a little abashed. Yes, each course was beautifully presented and flawlessly prepared, and the service was perfection. But not one of the courses made me drop my fork or ask for a moment of silence at the table. In fact, 9 months later I'd have trouble describing even one of them in detail for you.
Interestingly, my other really top-end fine dining experience was also at Taillevant. And while there was one dish there that I actively disliked (involving some pretty intense kidneys), my memories of that meal are much fonder. The first course, in particular, was foie gras creme brulee that truly blew my mind and palate. I can still taste it. Really, angels sang when I ate it. Also, the service at Taillevent was beyond perfection--it was warm and friendly in just the right way, even though we were three underdressed American women with only a few phrases of French between us. We all felt like the servers and sommelier were excited by our excitement and appreciation for the food and wine. At FL, I felt like just another $500 lunch tab.
My final grouse with FL is quite specific. My partner got the vegetarian menu (not because she's vegetarian but because she doesn't eat shellfish or "parts" including foie). Again, each of her courses was beautiful, but she literally did not get enough to eat. There was almost no protein or carbohydrates--it was all vegetables all the time. That was a inexcusable lapse in my mind.
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The times when I have had dinner have been pretty wonderful and I always found something to blow me away. But I had lunch once and I have to say it was cooked well but not wow, and I thought the lamb dish I had essentially tasted like pizza (weird, I know). The whole meal (service, food, etc.) was kind of blah!
About the only fun I had that lunch was to make up a conversation for the benefit of our snooping neighbors at the next table. I launched into how my friend was really going to have to quit heroin and his pimping to support his habit. Without even blinking he carried the conversation on. I thought the eavesdropping lady was going to have a heart attack! She was visibly edging away, worried she was going to contract something. Ah, good times!
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I haven't been to FL, so your story raises a question for me: are the tables that close together,or was your neighbor unusually snoopy? (well, I suppose it could be both :-)). I have to admit, I'd hate the idea of paying that much, not being blown away by the food, and being in close quarters.....
and that would go triple if anything tasted like pizza, not being a pizza fan.....
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We were in a small side room with maybe 2-3 other tables and it was deathly quiet. I suppose that aided in any eavesdropping. The tables are not real close, especially upstairs. I think the neighbor was just especially snoopy because my friend was dressed rather shabbily, making him look like a possible rock star given how expensive the place is.
The lamb, IIRC, came with olives, bell peppers, tomato something or other...all coming together to taste like, well, pizza!
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Great story chaddict! Thanks.
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My feeling is, if you can afford and manage it, it's worth going to see what it's about. You can't really tell what you're missing without trying it...although you can certainly get a sense if it's for you or not.
I do agree about expectations and hype...just don't think about it. I'm not sure I'd call it soulless. I think the words I'd use are hyper refinement, along with finesse and execution. They rarely miss on those three things and they use exceptional ingredients.
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Maybe it's a classic case of over-heightened expectations.
All your friends tell you that a movie is the best flick of the decade. You pay your money, and it's really pretty good, but nowhere near what you've been led to believe. You feel let down, even though you would have raved about it in the absence of prior expectations.
With food it's worse. Admission to a great movie is the same as for a bad one, but Mr. Keller certainly doesn't work for the same scale as the brilliant unknown chef who is honing his/her chops a local eatery. If a $25 entree from somebody you've never heard of is good but not great, it's still a decent value. You set aside a big chunk of change and weeks of anticipation for dinner at FL (or wherever), and it had better be perfect. Anything less is a disappointment.
Even the best chef isn't going to blow away every diner with every meal. Keller makes great food. Does it live up to its reviews? Only you can make that call.
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I agree, the one time I went to FL, I encouraged everyone in the car to not expect to be blown away, but instead to pay attention to the details and the effort the kitchen puts into the food. We knew we also had to be patient as the 4 hour experience would seem slowly paced.
With those metered expectations, we were all thoroughly impressed and very much enjoyed our meal.
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If I'm paying that much money for lunch, you're darned right I want to be blown away. I expect more from the FL than living up to lowered expectations.
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I think BC was suggestng the best way to enjoy FL is *not* to expect anything and you'll have a great time. I can speak from experience, I was sort of jumping off the walls in expectation of FL..and it didn't serve me well. Everything was as good as advertised but it couldn't meet heightened expectations.
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I guess my issue with this line of thought is that for $300 plus per person....the expectations ought to be higher than virtually any other restaurant in the world. Getting my head around paying that amount and investing the amount of time _and_ tempering expectations doesn't really work.
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I totally agree. Given the price you should expect the best, and yet the more you pay out, the more positive feedback you read, the greater the expectation and possible disappointment "might" be.. It's a tricky proposition to be sure. It sort of defies logic. The best I can say is "try and allow yourself to be surprised". Expecting too much is like expecting that the purchase of an expensive sports car to solve your dating problems.
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You mean it won't? Damn!
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>but instead to pay attention to the details and the effort the kitchen puts into the food<
I'm sorry, it's the result that counts, not how much effort the kitchen puts out.
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There are generally two types of food-loving people who don't care about the French Laundry mystique: 1) talented chefs and restaurant people who don't play the ego game, and 2) people who want to enjoy their company as well as their food. That's not to say that TK isn't talented - he very much is. But cooking's not really that difficult. And when I dine out, I like to have fun, to share my food, to try others,, and in general, to enjoy myself.
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So the people who do care about the FL are untalented, play the ego game and/or don't like to enjoy their company? Interesting viewpoint. I certainly had no difficulty enjoying myself or sharing tastes with my friends when I ate there.
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No.
It is not just hype or ego.
Many of the people who appreciate French Laundry ... really appreciate it and are not just bliinded by the hype ... have sophisticated tastes and as Benny Choi mentioned can appreciate the nuances.
I personally don't have that level of taste. While I think Thomas Keller is a master of PR ... it's not just that. There is a sincerity behind everything, I believe.
Maybe it is they hype part that puts me off. If the reservation system wasn't so absurd and the prices not so out of line, I might be more of a fan. Yet it probably still wouldn't be the first place I'd go to eat when in that area.
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" personally don't have that level of taste"
Oh come on - you are going to let a restauranteur (or anyone) tell you his food is too good for you to realize how good it is?
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No, I'm the last person to let anyone tell me what is good or not. However, it is like wine. I can recognize others have better palates and more knowledge in that area than I do and while I might enjoy a pricy bottle of wine, I won't get the same level of enjoyment as someone who is zoned into wine will get.
Which goes back to the question in the OP. For those that are fans of FL, what is it that some miss?
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I might take back my comment on sincerity.
Thomas Keller's TV Dinners ... for those who can't go to FL
http://www.chow.com/grinder/3821
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From an article linked there:
[Keller] said the main reason he changed his mind about pursuing additional opportunities was his staff. By providing advancement possibilities within his organization, he can retain and motivate his employees.
``To maintain the consistency and quality of the staff, you have to give them opportunities,'' Keller said in an interview.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pi...
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Interesting link in that article about what may be the decline and fall of what (of all people) Gary Danko called the "Laundromat" ...
http://sfcovers.com/2007/07/thomas-ke...
One previous fan wrote that FL "displays an automatic, slightly assembly line quality," with predictable food, weak examples of luxury ingredients like truffles and caviar and undisclosed add-on prices."
Hmmm ... I might have been ahead of times with my post. One blogger wrote that FL critics said FL was " "a perfection without blemish or character, sanitized, safe, and soulless."
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In my opinion, the best post I've read here on Chowhound was written by Heidie Pie (sp) a couple of years ago. It had everything going for it, great descriptions of the food, wonderful humor and lots of specific info.
I can't find it now because it's too old to search for (searching being limited to the past year as far as I can detect).
If anybody knows where to find it, or if HP is around and can repost, it's worth its weight in gold!!
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Is this it?
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/35624
Click on the show options link when searching and you can search back to the beginning of Chowhound. Or bookmark this link
http://www.chow.com/search?search%5Bq...
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Re: rwo's posting of the link to Heidiepie's article on the F.L.
Yes! Yes! My precious lambie pie of god! Thank you.
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That review beautifully articulates so much of the reason I'm not jonesing to return to the FL. I agree with almost all of HP's observations, except for this:
" I don't feel ripped off because I will take away a lasting
memory of quite a few very specific miraculous flavors. I don't think I've ever had so many in one meal."
I'm not sure I feel ripped off, but that is precisely why I felt let down by the experience. I don't remember one single "very specific miraculous flavor," though certainly everything was very good and even delicious. I wanted at least one very specific miraculous flavor (like the foie gras creme brulee at Taillevant that I mentioned above) but I never got it.
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Boy, I can still clearly taste a number of thinks from the different times we were there. As Heidipie said inher review from back when, The Calotte de Bouef was simply the best piece of beef I have ever put in my mouth. The rack of rabbit was absolutely the most exquisitely appearing dish I've ever been served, and the flavors in the dish were perfect. The garlic custard with oesetra caviar was another perfect combo. Ditto the butter poached lobster. The cornets of salmon still ranks as one of the top amuse bouches I've had. I could go on, but you get my point. Just the fact that these dishes have stuck with me for 6,7,or even 12 years in perfect clarity says a lot about them. Ther have been a few misses( maye not really misses, but dishes that didn't hold to the same level) over the years. It has been 2 years since I've been there. They were closed for their vacation when we were out there this past summer, and we had to make do with Ad Hoc for dinner, which was quite different, but still excellent. I will be interested to see if the quality has suffered at all from Keller's many other projects But I will be going back again.
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I think people like Anthony Bourdain are impressed by the level of craft and execution. There are few restaurants in the world that can afford to do anything so ambitious, since it takes a normally prohibitively large ratio of staff to customers.
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It was actually seeing the restaurant on Anthony Bourdain's show that made me want to go--I wasn't interested before because I thought the reservations thing was too ridiculous. I'm glad I went--truly a memorable meal. I look forward to doing it again. (Just wish I could get into Per Se when I go to NYC a couple of times a year!)
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Bourdain's show made me not want to go. Just watching made me queasy. I'm a big eater and have no problem spending all afternoon or evening at table, but four hours of canapes?
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Well, since it's not four hours of "canapes," I'm sure you could regain your appetite.
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Little servings of several items at a time. To me it looked like an endless succession of appetizers.
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I thought it looked agonzing. How can you relax and have dinner conversation if you're always being given some new tidbit to ooh and ahh over? That, along with the hushed atmosphere, doesn't seem like much fun. Though I guess fun isn't the point. (I do respect him as a chef, but wouldn't eat there even if I could afford to.)
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How can one relax and enjoy? The same way one would in any tasting menu situation - we're still talking food, not gifts from the apostles. All these comments sound more like aversions to fine dining/tasting menus than specifically to TFL. Perhaps one should actually TRY the restaurant before criticizing it.
For what it's worth, while the food was not as good as TFL, our party's visit to Per Se was by far the most relaxed and enjoyable fine dining meal we'd ever had. We joked and laughed... and the sommelier, in particular, added to it. TFL was not quite as relaxed; however, we had a fantastic time... food, laughs, and all (including a humbling moment for one of the servers who accidentally knocked over a water glass and murmured "Oh shit" loud enough for us all to hear it. What do you know - humans after all. ;) ).
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