Miami Wine Lists exposed & Chowhound Recs
I know this topic has the possibility of being moved to the Wine board where I am positive it will die a quick death so I'm appealing to the board monitor to show some leniency and let Florida Chowhounds chime in.
Food and Wine recently ran an article on how to circumvent pricey wine lists. Not surprisingly, two of the top cities for rampant markups on wines were Las Vegas and Miami, two tourist-heavy areas where one-time gouging of diners is preferred to building a local customer base. I have a feeling that Orlando and many other parts of the state run along the same lines. We are, after all, the #1 tourist destination state in the country. Take that California!
I can't really blame restaurants, on South Beach especially, for having to mark up lists enough to cover expenses, but some of the markups were deemed outrageous. Evolution got singled out for its markup on Krug champagne (4x retail) and Johnny V's new place at the Astor got a not-too-positive response from a distributor when he found out that a $15 Crios Torrontes from Argentina was being sold for over $40.
So what's a local Floridan to do when faced with such outrageous markups? Take your own wine was one solution. Most restaurants have corkage fee and even if you get charged an outrageous $25 one, you'd still come out ahead. Another was to do the champagne test in which you commit to memory the retail price of certain champagnes which are almost always included in wine lists (Krug, Perrier, Veuve, etc.). The markup on those could be used as an indication for the rest of the list.
So now that we've been exposed to the possibility of higher markups and given tools to combat them, how's about giving props to places that are doing their best to offer high qualit lists and less than astronomical markups. My suggestions:
Michael's Genuine - having a vintner co-owner doesn't hurt and some of my research shows markups of around 2x. They also have a generous corkage of $15.
Michy's - lots of value-laden bottles considering the quality of the food. Spanish wines and sherries are one of the focuses (foci?).
Xixon (on Coral Way) - tapas + $10 corkage per bottle. Heavily Spanish.
lax2mia
Jun 25, 2007 11:48AM
I like the wine list at River Oyster Bar-some decently-priced stuff. I ususally drink the Rose, actually, and those should be inexpensive; and I also like the list at W Wine Bistro, which is very gentle. It's a retail plus $10 (?) corkage, and they have some decent chaep bottles.
Not to go off on a rant, but...
I thought the article was very simplistic, and it was quite disingenuous of the distributor to be 'shocked'. As you may be aware, wines are carried in this state, for the most part (99% of the time), by ONE distributor, and one distributor only. If they had competition like their customers, the prices of wine to the end-user would plummet. Although I loved the quote that we should probably blame the landlords, because they are the ones ultimately forcing restaurant and wine prices thru the roof!
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First, I agree this belongs in the Florida board and not the wine board. We're talking about South Florida wine lists after all.
I kept on meaning to post on this but wanted to get the F&W quote, and the magazine and the computer never seem to be in the same place. I did think the "champagne test" was overly simplistic (many places may mark up champagne as a "sucker's bet" but still have reasonably priced items throughout the rest of the list) but the subject was certainly on the mark. The distributor monopoly still can't explain why one restaurant can price a wine reasonably and another will price the same wine at a 3x or 4x markup.
Also very much agree that places that have fair wine lists deserve credit, and patronage, for doing so (in fact started a post on this recently but it had little traction). Michael's and Michy's would both make my list as well, Michy's in particular has really made strides and expanded the list, not just with high-end items but lots of under $50 choices. I'd add Timo to that list as well. Talula used to be on it, but lost its place when I saw a $13 Malbec going for $45.
Notwithstanding the F&W "champagne test", I actually have to give some props to Evolution here. In the post I did after our visit this past weekend, I noted that I was actually pretty impressed by their wine program. The wine list is for the most part fairly pricey, though it is definitely a high-end place all around. But there are at least some relative bargains, at least as far as markup goes.
For instance, I had (on the sommelier's recommendation) a 2003 Michel Gros Vosne-Romanee 1er cru Clos de Reas for $115. Steep for me, but this is a premier cru burgundy from a very good vintage. When I priced it on Wine Searcher the following morning, the wine retails for around $90. That is a very slim markup (about 20%) for a very low-production wine. A lot of money but a more-than-fair price.
Also, they had a whole page of "bin ends" because they are clearing out most of their non-French wine inventory. Again, a lot of items were expensive, but fairly priced. For an example of one that I know the retail on, they had a Loring Gary's Vineyard Pinot for $50. If you buy it direct you'll pay $40.
I should also mention El Carajo (tapas bar on 17th & US1 in back of the Citgo) where you can take anything off the shelf from their surprisingly good wine selection and pay $10 corkage over retail to have it with your meal.
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"The distributor monopoly still can't explain why one restaurant can price a wine reasonably and another will price the same wine at a 3x or 4x markup". Of course you must know that perhaps not everyone is paying the same price; and that is one factor that can not be overlooked, as Bouley may have gotten your 'bargain' for a lot less than you think. If they're charging $115 for the bottle, they probably didn't pay more than $50. (That's a markup of 130%.) The distributor throws in these 'bargains' to sell the expensive stuff. That's where the monopoly comes in. So how was the wine?
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I have just sold my restaurant and also bought my wine from the same distributor as everyone else presumably. I was surprised to see the same wines I bought at the same price and sometimes cheaper at Publix. I guess we were a small time purchaser and could not negotiate better prices.
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I also used to see wines priced at retail for the same or LESS than I paid wholesale. Really messes with the retail markup equation.
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This is why it's important to talk about "case one wholesale" -- i.e.: the wholesale price PRIOR to any applicable discounts. This is -- or at least is supposed to be, by law -- a constant.
As a wine buyer for a small restaurant, much of what I bought was at case one pricing, though I *was* eligible for some "by the glass" discounts. As a wine buyer for a large retail chain, EVERYTHING that I bought was at max. discount. and -- yes -- as a result, there were times when my retail price was less than the case one wholesale offerred to restaurants . . .
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Traditional retail is 50% markup over wholesale, equalling a one-third profit. Thus, a bottle with a RETAIL price of $115 cost -- before discounts -- approx. $76.667 at the wholesale level ($920.00 per case one wholesale before any discounts).
There is no doubt that SWS wheels & deals & gouges, but . . .
I do not know what Evolution in the Ritz-Carlton sells the m.v. Krug for on their list, but The Dining Room at the Ritz-Carlton in San Francisco has the "multi-vintage" Champagne Krug Grande Cuvee for $230 on their list.
Other restaurants: Bayona, in New Orleans, has the same wine for $225, the best price I've found. Gramercy Tavern in New York offers it for $350. Nobu in Miami offers Krug for $375.
Mistral in Boston offers the same wine in a magnum for $575 (roughly equal to $275 for the 750ml bottle, as magnums cost more), while Joel in Atlanta offers half-bottles for $189 (roughly equal to $350 for a 750, as half bottles are more expensive).
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According to the article, Evolution was charging $437 for the Krug NV. Your comparisons lend at least some credence to Miami restaurants' propensity to gouge. How can restaurants at two Ritz Carltons have such a large discrepancy?
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Wholesale prices can vary between states, due to such variables as state taxes, additional transport costs, and the actual cost paid by the wholesaler to the importer or -- in some cases, though not with Krug -- directly to the producer.
For example, if Wholesaler X buys wines from Importer A in such a quantity that an entire temperature-controlled container comes directly from France into the nearest port of entry and then straight to Wholesaler X's warehouse, then X is paying much less for their wines than Wholesaler Y who is buying smaller quantities than come out of Importer A's warehouse . . .
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I recognize that different buyers get different prices, but there can only be so much of a swing on, for instance, that Crios that Johnny V is selling for $40. If it consistently retails for $15, that means wholesale is probably about $10. But even if you assume Johnny V has so little bargaiing power that he's actually paying retail (doubtful given the size of the cellar he's assembled there), there's still in my mind no excuse for marking it up more than 2x, or $30.
I also don't question that Bouley may have gotten a good price on the wine I bought (though I don't think anyone is getting rare bargains on '03 burgundy), and if so I think it's fantastic that they are passing along that savings to the customer. No matter how it happens, you can't beat a 20% markup over retail on a good bottle of wine. (And it was quite good, by the way - after being reared on Oregon pinot along with Russian River and Sonoma Coast, I'm just starting to educate myself on the French stuff). It's not like the distributor was clearing out some plonk - it's a 91 point Spectator-rated wine.
I don't care so much about markup over the restaurant's wholesale price as much as markup over retail. What galls me is seeing a wine you could have picked up at Publix for $12 on the way to the restaurant being sold for $40 and up on the wine list. By the same token, if I see a wine which I couldn't buy myself for less than $90 being sold for $115, I'm gong to feel like I'm being treated well, regardless of what the restaurant paid for it. MInd you, it's a rare occasion I'm dropping three figures on a bottle in any circumstances, but if I'm going to, I like to feel like I'm not just paying the rent.
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NO restaurant pays retail . . . at least not in the overwhelming majority of states. (A couple of the state-controlled jurisdictions have some weird regulations, but Florida is not one of them.) Indeed, it is usually illegal for a retaurant to pay retail, as they are only permitted to buy wines from a state-licensed wholesaler. That is, a restaurant like Evolution must buy their wines from wholesalers licensed by the state of Florida, such as Southern Wines & Spirits -- they may not legally purchase wines from Crown or ABC, nor may they legally buy wine from wholesale companies or retail in other states nor retailers via the internet.
While there may be a difference between "case one wholesale" and the actual invoice price, after any discounts are taken, such is *rarely* the case with wines like Krug Grande Cuvée or Dom Pérignon, which are usually sold "net" (without discounts).
>>> I don't care so much about markup over the restaurant's wholesale price as much as markup over retail. <<<
I would suspect that is simply because you are more familiar with retail prices, rather than wholesale. Either way, the principal is the same, however.
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I don't have anything outstanding to add here, except that as a chronic champagne and sparkling wine drinker, I am always annoyed by the lack of selection and the markups being much greater than the markups on wine.
However, I did find something interesting recently. We went to Blue Moon Fish Company in Lauderdale and ordered the Laurent Perrier Brut Rose. It was about $75. The Veuve Clicquot was the same price.
We know we can buy Veuve for about $40-45 at BJ's (not sure at the moment), but we were clueless about the Laurent Perrier and wanted to try something new. (yes, this is where you can call me a sucker). We liked it very much (thankfully) and found it at Crown for $60. That's not much of a markup compared to Veuve. The only reason we could see was that Veuve is more popular, so mark it up more?
When selecting wines, I also get annoyed at seeing (retail) $20 and under bottles going for $40 (or more) and I refuse to order them, even if I know they're good wines. I'll still select something I haven't seen before even if it's $60-80. It still bothers me though. I shouldn't HAVE to do that.
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>>> The only reason we could see was that Veuve is more popular, so mark it up more? <<<
BINGO!
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I understand restaurants can't buy at retail and then resell, that they have to go through a distributor. My point was that even if their price from the distributor is no better than the retail price (hard to believe, but the post from Smartie above indicates it sometimes happened to him as a former restaurant owner), I don't see how a restaurant can justify selling that wine at 3x or 4x the retail price.
Yes, I do judge a wine list's pricing by comparison to retail, since I'll never know anyone's actual cost, but I generally will know or can find out what it would cost me to buy it. I'll usually happily pay a 2x markup over retail, and it doesn't really matter to me whether the restarauteur got such a good deal that he's actually making 3x or 4x or more on that bottle. On the other hand, I will cringe every time someone tries to make me pay 3x or 4x over retail - if it's costing you so much to get (and that's probably not usually the case) then find another wine to put on the list.
The few exceptions may be those wines that are so hard to get that you're paying the restaurant a premium for actually being able to get it - but I've seen just as much markup on 100,000+ case productions as on the rarest Sine Qua Non.
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1) I have seen the wine Frod ordered for $70 retail...markup just changed dramatically. Also, every WS 91 isn't great-be realistic.
2) Wines recommended by sommelier-"Hey, the last two bottles of X wine seemed a little off/were sent back, etc., try to get rid of the rest." Or, the lot we got from X wholesaler for 1/2 price because of storage/heat problems needs to go quickly. My friend, the sommelier at X Restaurant, drank some of this and it was starting to go bad, etc, etc. You get the idea. Sommeliers work for the restaurant.
3) One wine at Johnny V's does not mean the whole list is off.
4) Only rich people buy Krug in restaurants-they know what they're paying for. I don't care if it's selling AT retail, I'm not buying it, so who cares?
5) Casa Toscana has a great list!
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>>> 4) Only rich people buy Krug in restaurants-they know what they're paying for. I don't care if it's selling AT retail, I'm not buying it, so who cares? <<<
The theory generally applies across the board.
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MD -
1) winesearcher.com prices range from $70 to $100 - if you average and consider shipping cost, I figure $90. If you know somewhere that has it locally for $70 let me know. I'll still happily take a $45 markup (still well under 2x) on a $70 bottle.
1A) Completely agree that it's superficial to evaluate by points alone. I've had some great -90pt wines and some lousy +95pt wines. This wine I thought was very good but not "knock your socks off". My point was that this was a wine from an excellent vintage, by a solid producer, with a 90+ rating - not something you'd expect to be finding a bargain on.
2) Agree this happens sometimes, and I often don't bother with the sommelier or even more often will tell him 2 or 3 wines I'm thinking of and ask for his thoughts (usually including at least one I've had before to see how his thoughts compare to mine). But on the other hand a good sommelier can be an asset, particularly if you're trying something you may not know so well (which I think you should do - if all you drink is what you already know, you'll never expand your horizons and won't know what you're missing). For me, this was a good example of the right kind of experience.
3) Agree again and I'm not meaning to bash Johnny V in particular. I've only been to Johnny V's at the Astor once and was impressed by the scope of the wine list; and frankly don't remember what I thought of the markups. Sometimes a restaurant may just be looking to encourage buying at a higher price point and be marking up less on the more expensive bottles. Though I do have to admit that it pretty much universally galls me at any restaurant to see $10-15 bottles being sold for $40 and up, simply because the restaurant refuses to price anything below that. When there is so much good wine available at low price points (and there is!), it's inexcusable to not be offering some $30-35 bottles (or less). I'll put it this way - similar to the "champagne test", I do generally assume that kind of gouging tells me something about the mindset of the person pricing the wine. To me, it means they're more interested in milking a profit than in getting good wine to the customer at a fair price. We've all had the experience where there is simply nothing on the list under $40, and the one $40 bottle is some plonk you can buy at the grocery store. Compare this to a place like Timo, where I'd venture a guess that of a list with about 100-150 choices, probably 25-35% are under $40.
4) This goes back to my suggestion that champgane prices may often be a sucker's bet and shouldn't be used to evaluate the rest of the wine list.
5) Toscana is another place I've only been to once, and I did like how they did their wines. The owner there is also very happy to talk you through your choices.
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Agree that some wine lists are just atrocious and should be avoided. I am always open to NOT drinking a bottle, and sticking with beer, cocktails, or (god forbid!), a nice bottle of Sparkling Pelligrino.
This is especially true in high-rent neighborhoods and South Beach in particular-I have seen Sakes that I used to sell for $35 on premises for twice that! They do have some great sakes at Yako-San; and although Sake isn't wine, it is appearing on more and more 'hip' wine lists.
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btw I am female!
I used to charge 2.5 to 3 x the cost. I believe this is the norm but if you think about it the outlay for alcohol is enormous as the distributors have a 5 case minimum purchase and that is at least 60 bottles per time. Some wines sell faster than others so wine stocks are probably at least 120 bottles. My restaurant was fairly large but the customers were not huge wine drinkers, hence I sat on stock for much of the year.
It is not just about the selling price of a bottle of wine. You can buy pasta at 80c a bag and make a pasta marinara at home for a couple of bucks feeding 2 but does that stop you from buying a pasta dish at a restaurant for $13 plus? You need to factor in all the restaurant running costs.
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Understood, but if you assume storage costs between food and wine as equal, the labor that goes into making most dishes vs. uncorking a bottle are vastly different. A restaurant without food wouldn't run so to me anything over and above the food is frosting on the cake whether it be a full bar or just wine.
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"if you assume storage costs between food and wine as equal"
Bad assumption.
"A restaurant without food wouldn't run so to me anything over and above the food is frosting on the cake whether it be a full bar or just wine."
A restaurant without food? What a concept! There are many factors other than the wholesale cost of food and wine that go into determining the price of the finished product. For example, who do you think is paying the sommelier's salary? They are the biggest upsellers on the premises!
A restaurant in Miami only needs to sell 51% food to maintain their license. Booze is a big part of the bottom line. It is naive to suggest otherwise.
If what you said were true, perhaps the markups would be lower. Alas it is not, and they are not.
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Then based on your last statement the markups are justified for a restaurant to stay in business?
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Would it make you happy to know that those markups probably keep the price of your food 30% lower than they would be w/o wine and booze? It's simplistic to only examine wine markups.
Let's look at that $13 bowl of pasta. $.50 for the pasta, $1 for the sauce, maybe $2 if it's something special. Parsley on top, grated cheese, pepper, garnishes, etc. $.50... Max $3 food cost. Somebody making min. wage or close to it preparing the sauce, cooking the pasta, and putting it on a plate. You get the picture.
Yeah, I can make this at home, and I can also go to Total Wines or Crown and get a great bottle for $5, which I've seen on wine lists at the beach for $25!
How about worst wine lists-that would be a long list!
And forget about Sake ripoffs!
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>>> Would it make you happy to know that those markups probably keep the price of your food 30% lower than they would be w/o wine and booze? <<<
Undoubtedly profit margins on wine markups help restaurants stay in business, but that's very different from saying that higher markups on wine keep food costs lower. I bet you can't name a single place that has an overpriced wine list but really reasonably priced food! (Unless you count the "Gourmet Chicken Wing Dinner" at Hooters that comes with a bottle of Dom Perignon!)
There's no question in my mind that restaurants can and should mark up the wine. Nobody can reasonably expect them to just give it away at cost. The question is what kind of markup is fair to the customer.
Worst wine lists? I tend to block out the bad experiences and just not go back, but let's think...
Barton G - went for a family birthday recently, they absolutely refused to do any corkage, and it's not exactly like they've got such a comprehensive wine list. Ended up paying something like $60 a bottle for $20 aussie shiraz (and this was a decent sized group). Just one of many things I found to dislike about this place.
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>>> Barton G - went for a family birthday recently, they absolutely refused to do any corkage <<<
Corkage, of course, varies by law as well, with some juridictions being "wide open" and others being "flat-out illegal." But even in thoselocales where corkage is legal, it's usually left to the discretion of the individual restaurant whether to allow it (or not) within *their* parrticular establishment.
I realize this is "thread drift," and the subject of corkage could fill pages in and of itself, but I generally do not frequent establishments that do notpermit corkage. It's not that I bring a bottle with me each and every time I dine out (indeed, far from it) -- and when I do, I often *also* buy something off the list at the same meal -- but I object to the closed-mindedness of not permitting corkage, and I want to preserve my options in case i *do* wish to bring a botttle in at some future time.
Jason
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Locally there is no legal reason a restaurant cannot offer corkage, and many do. This was purely a business issue. I offered to pay corkage, plus buy one off their list for every one I brought, and they had no interest. And this is certainly not a situation where their wine list is so encyclopedic that you could find whatever you might want there. To the contrary, other than perhaps a dozen each of so-so cabs and chards, and another dozen or so overpriced Bordeauxs, there are usually only 2-3 choices for almost any other varietal. For a place that is primarily a special occasion, party type place, it's just ridiculous you can't bring a special bottle to supplement their mediocre wine list. As I said, just one of many things I disliked about the place.
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The only place I've been to that refused corkage was Bern's. I didn't bring a bottle but a table next to us tried to pawn off their Sterling Vineyards bottle as something special. The wine steward wouldn't go for it and he handed them the phone book sized wine list. I can see it in Bern's case in that their selection is so large as to warrant prohibiting consumption of outside wines. Barton G., not so much.
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I'm not talking about "overpriced wine lists", I'm simply saying, for example, that Argyle Pinot Noir is a bargain at Michael's Genuine at $38. He probably pays $10. So yes, the markup's around 300%. That might seem high, but I would still order that bottle feeling I got a 'buy' because it's a good food wine. Is that 300% markup helping to keep food costs lower? I don't think there's any doubt!
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I really don't care what the restauranteur pays. If he gets a deal for a penny a bottle but is still priced on the list at 2x retail that's fine with me. Your Argyle goes for around $20 retail so the markup is around 100%. Bascially, there's no way I'm going to buy it for wholesale so it's pointless to me to look at the markup over that vs. retail. Maybe that's just me.
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Doesn't the rule we have been living with all these years say, retail price is twice wholesale and a restaurant price is three times wholesale?
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Then I guess both arguments are valid.
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>> Doesn't the rule we have been living with all these years say, retail price is twice wholesale and a restaurant price is three times wholesale? <<
If that's the rule, then restaurant price would typically be less than 2x retail - 1.5x, to be exact. With rare exceptions, I can't remember the last time I saw markups that low. I'm accustomed to restaurant price being 2x retail and as a result of rampant wine-list-inflation have lately come to regard that as a "good deal." 3x and up I feel is overpriced and unfair to consumers except for the instances where you're talking about a rare and hard-to-find wine.
I agree with L2M, markup over wholesale isn't meaningful to me because (1) I often won't know wholesale price; (2) wholesale prices may well vary from one place to the next; and (3) I can't buy at wholesale anyway.
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These are flexible, of course, but generally (and fairly, more or less):
Retail-1 1/2 times wholesale
Wine List-2 1/2 retail
glass-Cost of bottle
I'm pretty sure she covered those markups in the article we're referencing.
Markup over wholesale is important because everything else emanates from the wholesale price. It may not be meaningful to you, but I order wine on a regular basis, have been a wine professional, and I want to have all the information. If someone bought a bottle for a penny and sold it to you for $20, and you're OK with that, so be it. I'd be miffed! And wholesale prices are not that difficult to find out.
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Mortons is outrageous! I know they're expensive and a steakhouse and blah blah blah, but OMG what we found out this weekend was highway robbery.
Since I'm a bit of a champagne ho (as well as an oyster ho) we've come to terms with overpriced champagnes in restaurants, but they have crossed the line.
Veuve Clicquot - $125 ($40-45 in stores)
Piper Sonoma - $80 ish ($20 in Publix)
I mean, puleaze! As much as I love the place, I don't think I'll ever EVER order bubbly there again. They are extortionists. I'm really sick and tired of restaurants ripping me off with champagne and sparkling wines.
I never paid noticed it this badly until this thread was started. I guess denial can be a good thing.
Even on Royal Caribbean, the Veuve Clicquot is "only" $77 and cruiselines are notorious for marking up everything.
Yeah, I'm kind of pissed right now.
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Cute story-the Crios Malbec is actually $11 at Total. Ouch.
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Just thought I'd post something outrageous. Took my own wine to Novecento in Brickell. Corkage was $26. Enough said.
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For a good deal, try Le Bon on Lincoln Road on Wednesday. During the summer slow season, all bottles of wine and champange are 1/2 off the list price (wed only) and everyday they has specials on 1/2 kilos of mussels. I think it's less that $10 for a 1/2 kilo pot between 5:30 and 7:30, something like that.
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Their list of Belgian beers is outstanding too.
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I had to revive this after what I saw this weekend at a certain Miami restaurant.
Chateau St. Roch 2000: $69 on wine list, $12.99 retail (Happy Wine). Markup: over 5x.
MiaDan - please help me rationalize this.
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Are you sure it was the same wine?
They're a Rhone producer (though I'd never heard of them and had to look it up) and they make a Cotes du Rhone and a Lirac (either of which you'd typically find for around $10-15 retail) and a higher end Chateauneuf du Pape (which would typically retail around $30+, so that a $69 wine list price would be a fairly typical markup).
If it was a $13 Cotes du Rhone going for $69, then I think the answer is "because they think they can get away with it". While that's not very honorable, speaking for myself I'd expect to find Cotes du Rhones going for $30-45 on a wine list and if I saw one going for $69 I'd just avoid it and look (suspiciously and carefully) at the rest of the wine list for something more appropriately priced.
If on the other hand it was a $69 Chateauneuf du Pape, that's probably about right. I'd expect a CDP from a good year (and 2000 was a good year for southern Rhone) to be going for $60 to $100+.
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MD - It was Michy's. Let 'er rip.
Frod - I'm 100% sure it was the same wine, same vintage. It's from St. Estephe. If you brush up on your French here are some descriptions.
http://www.vintageandco.com/wd110awp/wd110awp.exe/connect/vintageandco?Ref=TL12089
http://www.e-sommelier.com/Bordeaux/S...
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As a great Miami icon used to say, 'Ain't it a crime.'
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*edited. I thought the online wine list would help but I don't see it listed.
http://www.restaurantelite.com/miami/...
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