Proper tip on wine? Seeking waiter's perspective
Many of you may have read a recent article where a wealthy man had spent an obscene amount of money on wine while dining. The Wine far exceeded the food bill. The total was in the thousands for food and wine.
What is appropriate in this situation with regards to tipping. If one tips twenty percent on the food, my question is as was posed in the article, what is the appropriate percentage for wine which may exceed the food by hundreds or thousands and is often self poured. Where does the waiter weigh in on such a scenario.
Tonto
Oct 04, 2006 04:57AM
If there was a wine steward involved (as one might expect in such a scenario), the question is not necessarily going to be answered by the waiter but by the older custom of how to tip a wine steward or sommelier.
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If you buy a special bottle of wine, and there's a wine wait[er|ress], a wine steward[ess], a sommeli[er|ère], or whatever you want to call it, it's polite to invite him or her over to have a bit of the wine. I've never bought a thousand-dollar bottle of wine but I don't think I'd tip $200 on it.
I could be totally wrong and rude, though.
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This is one area where it may be helpful to know your state's income tax law as relates to income from tips. When I was waiting tables, I remember having to report 8% of the total of my tickets for the evening (and I can't remember if that was 8% of pre- or post- sales tax). The appropriate income tax on that 8% was then deducted from my paycheck (the whopping $2.01/hr I was making). If an expensive wine was ordered, it was included on my evening total, and I would be taxed on it. I understand completely not wanting to tip $200 for a bottle of wine (even if it is a $1000 bottle), but at the same time, I would hate to be responsible for a server getting taxed for income he did not receive. I have no idea what the laws regarding tips and income tax are, state-to-state, but I imagine that every state has at least some reporting regulation to cover federal income taxes.
Anyone else know more about the tax angle?
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all tips are required to be reported... not just 8% of sales. but since a lot of wait staff don't report all their tips, or in the absence of documentation as to the actual amount of tips received, tip income can be re-calculated based on the average tips for the area, type of restaurant, etc. I think that is why most restaurants end up using some sort of construct like the 8%.
frankly.. I have to pay taxes on every dollar I earn, i don't see why it should be any different for wait staff.
and if you have the cash to spend that much money on wine... and assuming you are eating in a restaurant that offers full wine service & probably a sommelier... then why stiff the waiter on the tip? there is a lot of extra work that goes in to properly decanting and serving wine.
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What's the extra effort between decanting and serving a $100 bottle of wine and a $1000 bottle of wine, besides $180 in tip?
I'm not trying to be mean, and I did work as a waiter, but I never got tipped 20% on fancy bottles of wine.
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well, I would assume that if you ordered a bottle that cost $1,000 vs. $100, there would be a elevated level of "wine service". i.e. at that level one would think that you wouldn't be pouring your own wine at all... perhaps fresh glasses with new bottles, etc. so I do think that there is extra effort, time and expense involved.
sure there is a line there where 15%-20% of the cost of the wine is a bit steep for a tip, but I guess my point is that if you're that serious of a wine drinker... and are at an establishment that recognizes that, then don't be cheap. I would think the tip should at the very least cover the normal corkage charge, plus.
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Poppycock! Pouring wine is pouring wine!
TT
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Balderdash TT!
I disagree.. you order a bottle of wine in one restaurant and you get 1. the bottle opened and 2. the first glass poured. you order a bottle of wine at another restaurant and you never have to pick up the bottle after it is opened.. *and* you get fresh glasses if you switch from white to red.. or even between varietals. there is totally a difference in levels of "wine service". not to mention getting a "uhm, we have a house red and a house white" vs. "the chardonnay would be a much better accompaniment to your pasta madame".
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The OP asked about whether the tip should be increased for a really expensive wine. The post I replied to said that there would be a different level of service simply because one wine cost more than another. While that may be true, why SHOULD it be? It takes no more effort to pour a $10 bottle, than it does a $1000 bottle. The act of physically pouring the wine into a glass is EXACTLY the same, no matter what the cost of the bottle.
TT
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Your wrong....A $1000 bottle a wine should never be treated the same as a $10 bottle of wine. From the way it's handled, to the way it's presented, uncorked, aerated, and poured. Every aspect should be handled with a lot of care and calmness.
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Are these things ever priced into the price of the bottle?
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I would think so, but I'm not 100% sure.
I've never ordered a $1000.+ bottle, but have seen one refused after it was presented, looked at, smelled and tasted. What happens to that bottle after it has been opened?
My host was never charged, and his excuse was accepted by the restaurant. I'll have to ask him about that the next time I talk to him.
The whole scene was not ordinary though, and it was handled in a manor that I had never experienced with food or wine.
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Infomaniac, sometimes the wine is corked, or bad. In that case, it would be sent back and the restaurant would receive credit from the seller for the wine. On occasion, the wine may be fine, but the restaurant chooses to make a VIP guest happy, accept their opinion of the wine being bad, and then offer it by the glass to other VIP guests or drink it and use it for (very expensive) server training!
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if the wine is bad the resto gets a refund.
if the wine was fine the resto can always sell it off by the glass.
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MMRuth, which things? The tip no. The expense of storing a wine like this, yes, but has no impact on the server - the house has the expense and charges for it.
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And the return should go to the resto that took that risk. The waiter did not take the risk of all these items and should not benefit as the resto does. He should get a good amount for the pour, not all the other stuff that went into the bottle being so expensive.
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Of course you CAN treat the two bottles differently, infomaniac, but the actual pouring remains the same. You can choose to alter it, but it's not necessary to the defacto pouring.
TT
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Actually TexasToast and Das Ubergeek - Infomaniac is correct and you are wrong. More expensive wines tend to be older and therefore must be handled differently. It takes much more care to open a 20 yr old Bordeaux than a 6 month old chardonnay. If you shake or spin the bottle while opening the sentiment will stir up into the wine (not good). If you poor it too fast it will stir. You may need to decant it. To imply that opening a bottle is just opening a bottle is just not the way it is! I also HOPE a restaurant serving $1000 bottle of wine does offer better service than one serving a $10 bottle (by the way – where IS this restaurant!?) Do I think you need to tip 20% on a $1000 bottle of wine? No. But as someone who has worked in the industry for years, the portion of a server’s tip that they have to give to other people is often based on their sales and can be as much as 45% of what they started with. 20% on food and then 10% to 15% on expensive wine would make most servers happy I think, but then what is expensive? I agree with asiege2, when the wine reaches the value of the dinner and or over $200, 10% is appropriate. If you want to be really nice, offer a taste!
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Thanks for your explanation.
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See below I do not drink so I am an outside looking in observer.
If the definition of elevated is fresh glasses with a new bottle, isn't there a new ringy on the register and tip meter with the new bottle. I think the resto and the waiter got that covered.
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when I have a big night out and spend big bucks on wine I ask for two checks - 1 for food and 1 for wine - then I tip according to the services provided by each staff. (typically 25% for food and 10 % for wines.
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That's an interesting approach. It tries to get back to the traditional tip for wine stewards, which IIRC was 10% (higher for cheap wines, lower for very expensive wines; and the invitation to share a bit).
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I'm probably atypical in this respect, but as a waiter I don't mind a customer tipping significantly less on a bottle as the bottle price rises or as bottles accumulate. If the kitchen doesn't accidentally flambe your tartare and I keep up my end of the deal, I expect that I'll receive somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% on food and the same amount on wine itself.
That is until wine reaches something like 100% of food costs. Once you've spent as much on wine as you have on food I think slack is in order. I think 10% or so is still warranted after you've reached/surpassed food costs, but 20% gets a little crazy. That said, once the price of a bottle passes $200 or so, it's just kind of greedy to expect 20% (in my opinion!).
I've never really thought that out before, so I'm not sure that makes perfect sense, but it seems about right to me.
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I second that, Asiege. The tip percentage generally goes down for pricey bottles. Occasionally people will tip 20% on really expensive bottles, but I considered that a bonus/windfall, certainly not what was expected.
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I made my living as a Wine Steward for many years and the Waitstaff had to tip us out on 12% of the overall wine sales. This seemed pretty equitable.
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I find this an enlightening comment...so, if a diner only tips 8-10% on the cost of the bottle of wine because it's quite expensive, then the would have to tip out to you more than they received in their tip for the wine? In other words, they would have to pay you for the diner shorting them?
And no, I'm not blaming you or saying the practice is unfair, or inequitable. I'm just looking for clarification. Actually I think the policy of ensuring the wine steward receives an appropriate tip as opposed to the waiter receiving the full tip makes sense. I'm just wondering what happens when a diner tips less than the 12% on the wine because the price is fairly high.
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It is very equitable as we crunched the numbers and our guests typically tipped 18-20% on the overall bill. Therefore the waitstaff was making money from our knowledge and service. When someone got a bit stiffed on the wine we still got our 12%, based on the fact that they consistently made money on us and it would come out in the wash. We offered to meet the waitstaff and take an identical tip to them and the smart ones balked at the idea as they knew they would be losing thousands or the year. We did give every member of the staff one "Pass per year", the younger ones would use it early on a $200.00 bottle saving $24.00. Then have to pay us out on a $2000.00 or $3000.00 dollar bottle.
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Most restaurants in the city don't do that.
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i've said this before on previous threads about this subject. if you're spending big $$ on a bottle of wine, most likely you're celebrating an occassion and are expecting to have a special and memorable night. if you have the money to spend on all the items that signify a special night out, why would you then nickel and dime the person who ties it all together and makes it all happen for you (i.e. the server)? she or he made your special night go off without a hitch so you should pay them accordingly.
wine service shouldn't be treated any different than food service. in a way, wine service is more work. there are far more wines on a list to be familiar with than items on a menu, and to have even a basic knowledge of the list the server most likely spends their own money on wine books, bottles to drink at home and take notes on, maybe visit wineries on their own time. there's also the portion of service that includes polishing stemware, decanting, and refilling your wine glasses when needed (you should never have to pour your own wine).
if you purchased a $100+ entree, would you not tip on the total for that just because it's more expensive?
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To: rebs Oct 8, 2006"
Since when did paying 10% on an expensive bottle of wine (that didn't take as much effort to serve as the less expensive meal) become "nickel and diming" ? (& isn't that cliche reserved for the person paying as opposed to receiving money ?). That's still a lot of money for a few minutes of work. Sounds rather ungrateful to me.
What hitch are you referring to ? What rocket science are you in control of ? You submit our order to the chef and later bring us the plates. You may check on us a couple of times to see if we desire anything else. Grab a bottle of wine, open it and pour (you say wine service is more work than the meal ... gimme a break !) Bring us the check and thank your customer.
$100 plus entrees: it usually takes as much effort to bring those plates out as a $20 plate. In a perfect world waiter should be tipped on a straight rate regardless of the cost of the entree. If anything the chef should be tipped for the additional effort on an expensive entree.
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I do not drink wine (or any other alcohol) so I have no dog in this hunt, but I think that expecting 20% on an expensive bottle of wine is ludicrous. Yes there is a slight bit more work on decanting, pouring slowly, etc., but come on $200 on a bottle of $1000 wine. I would say the same thing to the customer who orders a $1000 of wine, come on that's ludicrous, i just don't get it from either side. Heh, I said I don't drink.
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I think one point that is being missed here is how important quality wine service becomes as the price of the bottle increases. Any server can server a bottle of yellowtail, but when you are talking about a 1964 Lafite-Rothschild, do you really want that 18 year old server from applebee's pouring it?
Absolutely not because they could ruin the wine experience. People who serve top quality wines are professionals and should be treated as such. They need to know wether or not to decant your wine, if a filter is to be used, how to prevent the sediment from the wine from getting into the wine in your glass. Handling good wine is like handling a baby. If you've never done it, you just don't understand the importance. I don't think 20% is excessive and often see people tip higher than that on expensive bottles. A server I've worked with was recently waiting on a table of 4 and their check ended up being around 5-6k. The people ended up leaving about a 30% tip. While that may seem insane, the type of people who order ultra high quality wine at restaurants tend to be *very* well of and recognize the value of the professionals that serve them. Most waiters make 20-30k a year. Servers in fine dining probably average around 50K, with very few making more than 70-80k. Considering the stress and work that goes into the job, I don't think that is excessive.
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SMD
I am not downplaying the importance at all and nowhere did I say or even allude to treating them unprofessionally. In fact, I get kidded all the time because I make conversation with everybody when I travel. How many people thank the TSA when they go through security at the airport. Jfood does.
But I do not think its is a justifiable position that the wine server receives 30% of the price. I understand that many posters state that this guy earns that and that guys earns this, but I do not interview the servers in various restos to tailor my tip if one owner pays them $3 and another $30 per hour, or if there are 2 splits of the tip or 20. And wrt the stress level, everyone has different levels of stress. Most people would cut off a toe versus deal with the stress I have every day, but I do not have any problem with it, I love it. I felt more stress 20 years ago when I was earning 1/10 of what I earn now so I do not buy into the more stress equals more earnings equation, either.
If someone wants to leave a 30% tip on a >$1000 bottle of wine, more power to them, but i do not feel that should be the expectation
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I agree that an expensive bottle takes more care to serve than a less expensive one, but you guys make it sound like you're doing brain surgery. You forgot to talk about simonizing the wine glasses, being able to find it in the first place, blah, blah, blah. Come on !
30K to 80 K for a server is absolutely ridiculous for that skill level. It's basic labor with a little people skills mixed in. What stress would you have that an Engineer, Hydrologist, Lawyer, or Doctor wouldn't ??
Of course you don't think 20 - 30 % is excessive, because you undoubtedly work in the industry.
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Wow, i thought "simonizing" had something to do with the sin of Simony.
The things you learn on CH!
I agree the restaurant money people are assuming some risk keeping
wine [tied up capital, somebody has to assume the risk of it going bad,
theft/damage risk, expensive glasses etc] and are entitied to a larger market,
but to push for tips linear in price is kinda leem. "returns to capital" != compesation
for effort.
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"30K to 80 K for a server is absolutely ridiculous for that skill level"
The jump from 30k to 80k seems to me to indicate a jump in skill level. I truly don't think anybody who has eaten out more than a few times would argue with the fact that there can be a vast difference in the skill level of service from server to server as well as from resto to resto.
Perhaps rather than setting an arbitrary and self-serving base rate for tipping, diners should tip according to the level of service they receive. this would mean taking into account all aspects of service, were the glasses and silver on your table polished or full of streaks and fingerprints, was your service informative and polite or passive and non-descript. Did you have to ask for water refills and silverware for the next course or did your meal proceed seamlessly throughout. The better the service the better the tip including the $1000 bottle of wine or the $100 dollar entree. Usually just the fact that the person is employed in a resto that has bottles of wine sold for thousands of dollars indicates a certain level of experience and knowledge as well as mechanical and mental skill. If you receive average to poor service the tip should reflect that, if you receive good to great service the tip should reflect that as well.
If anybody thinks that working in a good to great expensive restaurant is "simple, unskilled, or basic labor" that person should try doing that same job first before judging the difficulty and or skills required. Generalizing about service in all restos being "basic labor with a little people skills mixed in" is like claiming there is no difference between a perfectly ripe heirloom tomato from a local sustainable farmer to the gas ripened Mexican tomato with the texture of styrofoam from a big box store.
Those diners who would make no distinction between different tomatoes and different levels of service should stick to the styrofoamy big box tomato as the sustainably grown heirloom would just be a basic tomato with a little different color.
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Well said! You really hit the nail on the head.
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OK with the theory but let's take it out of the theoretical and into reality just to understand the hypothesis
Scenario 1 - Two-top; apps at $20 ; entrees at $50; dessert at $20; drinks at $25. total before tip $115 - great service
Scenario 2 - Two-top apps at $40; entrees at $90; dessert at $40; drinks at $250 total. total before tip $420 - great service
what would you leave in each case?
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jfood, math not being my strongpoint...
scen. 1- would not the total as you described things be $155, and for scen. 2- 480?
Regardless of whether it is new math or old... if the before tip total is $115, so considering great service I would tip anywhere from $25 to $35, depending on how demanding of a table we had been.
With the tab rising to $420 before tip and considering great service I would tip between $$85 and $100 again depending on how demanding of a table we had been.
I think a more telling scenario would be:
both scen. 2-- one with great service and one with poor service,for great service see above,
for poor service on a $420 bill, I would most likely leave somewhere between $30 and $42 as the tip, along with finding a way to inform the manager of the reason( even if this is via phone).
If you were to tip 20-25% on just the food, deducting $250 would put the bill at $170, so the tip would be $25-$35, and then leaving an arbitrary sum of $10 for the mere bottle opening would leave the service staff with a very similar amount of money. Even if the amount of tip on the drinks is a full 10%. that still leaves the total tip in the below average range.
I truly think that great service stands on it's own, regardless of total bill, or even locale for that matter. I also think poor service is inexcusable, and should not be rewarded with an automatic 15-20%. Nor should the service staff be confused about whether they provided great service and were simply not rewarded adequately, or whether they simply performed poorly.
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J
Corrected the post by removing "each" so nums should work. never try to post on the terrace in the sun.
But:
Let jfood understand. In the numerical example you set the great service in both at ~25%, fair point. but in your previous post to which jfood responded you stated that the the custo should NOT tip as a percentage. So jfood is having a brain cramp on this.
Either you set a price point of say $2 per app; $7/entree and $2/dessert, etc irrespective of the cost of each or you do as a percentage of the total. Or are you saying that you do a percentage of the total food and then add a number for the wine service.
Please help this old dog.
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jfood,
Admire the dedication to chow in that you are posting in the terrace on the sun, I personally would be dreaming of oysters and chablis... or at least the oysters if no chablis is available.
In answer to your question, I am advocating neither. Rather than saying anything about not tipping a percentage or tipping a percentage. My attempted point is for the diner to tip according to the service said diner has received and according to said diner's usual method of tipping. The 25% in question came from a forgotten(shame on me, i know...obviously my brain is cramping as well) post somewhere higher in the thread, in which the poster was fine with 25% on the food but not on the wine.
Every diner has a different method of arriving at an appropriate tip, whether that is a tip card with percentages figured per 50 cents or whether that is doubling or tripling the sales tax, or even a set dollar amount per course as you have suggested. Rather than attempt to advance my particular method as the "one" method, I would prefer to see good service rewarded accordingly and consistently, and poor service unrewarded accordingly and consistently.
If the diner's tipping habits trend towards a fixed dollar to item ratio then a bottle of wine would constitute four glasses. Following the dollar/item method would then necessitate the exact same tip for both the $115 and $420 meals. Perhaps this is jfood's method of rewarding great service at both places.
If a diner chooses to spend lavishly on a bottle of wine, how is this different than spending lavishly on food. If a diner regularly rewards great service with 25% then this should remain that diner's habit regardless of the cost of any individual item, chewed or sipped.
I find it a rather confusing that, while service consistently ranks as one of the most complained about and therefore seemingly most important facets of dining out, great service would either go unrewarded or be inconsistently rewarded.
As I mentioned above, if the diner is unable to distinguish between tomato quality, levels of service, school cafeteria meat and Wagyu beef, Yellowtail and Lafite '89 (the possible comparisons are endless) then perhaps that diner should stick to the school cafeteria meat and the Yellowtail. On the other hand, if the diner has discerning enough taste to order the Wagyu and the Lafite '89, then hopefully that diner will recognize either great or poor service and tip accordingly.
As I am guessing the sun has set in your neighborhood, and so is sadly no longer a distraction, I hope you have found other distractions worthy of keeping you from reading this reply immediately. My worthy distraction is about to be a bottle of Tavel and some feta stuffed sweet peppers with my lovely wife.
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thanks j, yes darkness has fallen at casa jfood and now watching top chef with mrs jfood as little jfood has her bf over watching in another room. but thanks for the thoughts. and jfood is thinking more of when to get up for a nectarine versus chablis and oysters since he does not drink and August does not have an "r".
As mentioned the cost of a bottle of wine never hits the radar since the jfood are water people. likewise jfood believes that the menu prices give a nice proxy to tip guidance. start at 15-20% and hopefully can increase so it's a win-win. hate having to leave a 10%'er because that meals it was a complete dysfunctional experience.
So jfood takes the KISS approach and does the percentage againstthe total bill. gets a percentage in his head based on theoverall experience and then multiplies and rounds up.
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$25.
$85.
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From my experience of working at one of the most expensive French restaurants in the country, my colleagues and I found it reasonable and fair to be tipped 10% for wines over $600.
Many times, though, customers did not calculate the wine cost separately, and tipped us full 20% for the whole meal, which, of course, we appreciated.
There are no written rules for tipping on wine. My suggestion is, if you can afford to tip 20% for the wine and - the most important part - if the overall service justified the quality and the price of the wine itself, by all means tip generously. Not only do we remember specific wines oneophiles ordered on prior visits, but we also recall whether we were tipped for the wine.
Tipping on wine service, especially on very nice wines, is a sure way for you to be treated as a good customer on your next visit.
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Baconstrip:
I'm sure I'd find it "reasonable" to make $60 for a few minutes work too. Affording it is irrelevant to the original question. I can "afford" to tip 1000 percent on a $600 bottle, so what ? By the way, I also don’t like strawberry ice cream. And I always love the subtle veiled threat of inflicting poor service on the next visit if you "recall" we didn't tip big before.
Dealing with server expectations when tipping on wine is quite annoying. Despite the opinion of many wine etiquette web sites and professional chefs calling for 5 to 10% tipping on wine (especially expensive wine that are near or exceed the meal cost), there are many industry advocates pushing for 20 % or more on the total tab, including tax and wine.
• Doesn’t matter that there’s a 100 to 400 % mark up already there.
• Doesn’t matter if the bottle costs $20 (which is getting rarer) or $200.
• Does it take 10 times more effort to pour a $200 bottle of wine versus a $20 one ? (And I’m not talking about using the services of a professional sommelier).
• Does a $200 bottle take up 10 times more storage space than a $20 bottle ?
• AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - Does a $200 dollar bottle of wine take as much effort to serve as the preparation, presentation, and serving of a $200 meal ?
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If you can afford the wine you can afford the tip.
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Do you honestly believe that "argument" or is this posturing?
Do you also believe "if you can afford to eat in my restaurant
you can afford a bottle of wine"? Do you get annoyed at people
who wont have a bottle with dinner? [assuming there is no
religious/medical issue].
That Steam2 fellow clearly has an opinion on the matter but
wrote a thoughtful post. A one line assertion doesnt advance
this discussion.
How would you like a reply along the lines of "if you dont
like the lower tip on wines, get a different job".
I think an interesting question is "do customers only consider
the out of pocket costs or do they care about the composition
of the costs" ... i.e. would you tip better on 200% markup bottle
than a 300% markup bottle. In my case I dont know what the
markup is 95% of the time, so ... I think it is not unreasonable to
factor that in if you do know.
The wine person isnt just in "competition' with the diner's wallet
but also with the restaurant owner, I'd think. Do the wine-employees
like high or lower margins on wine? Are the wine margins linear
from a $50 to a $50