What is cornbread where you're from? (longish)
I grew up with two kinds of cornbread in my family. The kind my grandma (from central NC) made was disc-like, about the size of your palm, unsweetened, and fried in a big cast iron skillet. This is probably known as hoe cake to some, but in this part of the state it was always just called cornbread. The kind my mom (a transplant from the west coast) made was Jiffy mix from a box--sweet, square, and cake-like. Because of my sweet tooth, I actually preferred my mom's kind. Later, my dad took over grandma's recipe, added a little sugar, and improved it immensely in my opinion (sorry, Grandma). Anyway, I always thought of my gradma's cornbread as Southern and my mom's as Yankee, so to speak. As an adult, however, I've noticed a very wide range of what is considered cornbread, even in the South. More and more, I run into the sweet cake-like versions of cornbread in Southern restaurants. It makes me wonder if cornbread is getting sweeter because it's now risen beyond it's humble status as the food of poor folk (who maybe couldn't afford to put sugar in their cornbread). If we throw hushpuppies (or corn dodgers as some call them) into the discussion, you'll still run into people who insist they should be made without sugar, but the most prevalent kind, and the kind I prefer, is definitely on the sweet side. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts and recollections on what cornbread is/was where you are or where you grew up.
Low Country Jon
Jan 31, 2006 12:54PM
I grew up in Virginia (look! I'm still here )and cornbread is NOT sweet and is made either in a cast iron skillet or muffin tins. It's moist but slightly crumbly and is terrific crumbled over a big bowl of pinto beans. Hushpuppies shouldn't be sweet either, but they should have a bit of onion in them.
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>> I grew up in Virginia (look! I'm still here)
You are indeed lucky to be living in God's Country.
Now, my Aunt Mabel, who lived in Gladys, Virginia, would occasionally put cracklins from the slaughtered pig into her cornbread. Never had it like that from anybody else.
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I believe S&S Cafeteria still serves cracklin cornbread
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i'm from the north (michigan), and grew up on the sweeter, more cake-like corn bread. it wasn't until i married a southern girl (from columbia, sc) that i was introduced to southern style cornbread. i have to say the less sweet, crunchier, cornier southern version won me over in a heart beat.
when i make cornbread, i still make the northern kind (w/ cheddar and jalapenos thrown in), but only because my wife's southern one is so much superior to my own attempts at it. if i can't have hers, then i don't even want to be reminded of it.
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Jon
there was a thread about this very topic on the home cooking board. My guess is a controlF would garner you more data for your study!
Smokey
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I grew up in NY with northern (Jiffy mix) style cornbread: yellow, cakey, sweetened and made in a baking pan.
In college in Virginia a generation ago, I encountered spoonbread for the first time, and fell in love with it. Haven't had it in 23 years and still keep meaning to make it someday (I have plenty of authentic recipes).
In southeastern New England, the home of the jonnycake, you can find a cornbread closer to the southern style, which makes sense given the Triangle Trade.
As for me, I use yellow stone-ground cornmeal with buttermilk and baking powder (Rumford), cooked in hot fat in a well-seasoned preheated cast-iron skillet, enriched with sweetener (Grade B maple syrup is my preference if using) or not according to my mood. The important things are the stone ground meal, and pouring the batter into sizzling hot fat in that skillet.
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The fat is important. My mom made a sweetish cornbread, but it was saved from blandness by the use of some of that recycled fried-chicken-conditioned bacon grease in the baking pan.
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Did you see the recipe I posted after Christmas for the spoonbread made with cooked grits and cornmeal? It was super, I may never (well never say never) go back to my mom's old recipe. Spoonbread is our standard go with for roast beef with gravy.
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Thank you Karl,
You have just said a BAM and took it up two notches when you mentioned spoonbread. That is definitely cornbread on a higher plain. Those of us from the Southwestern part of Virginia and people who were fortunate enough to have lived there and sampled spoonbread have been richly rewarded.
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Growing up in far upstate New York, what the moms and grandmoms made was usually made in a baking pan, and about two inches high. We always knew it as Johnnycake. No matter how it's made or what it's called, it exists for a single purpose, IMHO: to accompany Navy Bean soup!
Link: http://eatingchinese.org
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Same here in New England: cornbread moist though crumbly, lightly sweetened, made from yellow corn, baked in a pan (though now I use a skillet). I know all good little foodies are supposed to scorn Northern-style cornbread, but I love it. It shouldn't be as sweet or as cakey as Jiffy or the corn muffins you get in supermarkets, and the corn flavor should be stronger. I like a half and half mix of finely ground and coarsely ground meal.
Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com
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1.) No sugar
2.) Cooked in hot cast iron
3.) White meal
4.) Bacon grease added to batter and to pan
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Cracklings are a nice addition too, but as we discussed almost to death in December no sugar in mine and I always use Indian Head stone ground, very fine white cornmeal.
Hot water corn bread is a nice change once in awhile. It is sort of a fried pone. And a pot of greens with cornmeal dumplings cooked in the pot liquor is a tasty variation and side dish.
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I'm originally from GA and we made our cornbread the way that Jimmy Buffet describes above. Never any sugar and never any yellow cornmeal. Always an iron skillet.
My grandmother, who was from south Alabama, made something that she always called "Alabama cornbread". It was made with corn meal that she had to go to Alabama to buy. She would mix it with water only and fry flat little cakes in an iron skillet. The outside was very crunchy, it was almost flat, and the inside was dense and chewy. It had an intense corn taste. I have never had this type of cornbread other than when my grandmother would make it for me, and I have never encountered another person since who made it this way.
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Melissa, your grandmother's Alabama cornbread sounds very much like my grandmother's NC cornbread, but even in NC, most people would not have known that as cornbread. It seemed specific to an area north and east of Raleigh. Interestingly, a little to the east around Wilson, NC, they specialize in corn sticks--cylindrical, unsweetened cornbread that is first baked, then fried. Never seen that anywhere else.
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My grandmother made a similar cornbread. We called it hot water corn bread. She poured stone ground white corn meal in salted boiling water, when it reached the right "look", she dropped it by spoon fulls into a cast iron skillet with hot bacon grease. It was thin, crusty, and wonderful. You split it and put lots of butter on it.
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Aside from the sweetness, the difference in texture is also important. What's served up here (New England) in so many psuedo-bbq or southern joints (esp. the chains) is not only sweet, but it's like eating a yellow cake.
My southern wife's cornbread (cast iron pan, made using stone-ground corn meal) is solid, not airy, grittier, and just so much more corn tasting. I just don't understand why they serve the corn-cake in places that are supposed to be emulating southern food - ok, serve the corn-cake with Boston baked beans if you have to - but with navy beans cooked with a smoked ham joint, give me the real thing, and pass the chow-chow.
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Jon, that flat cornbread sounds like Native American fry bread which I have had in a Lumberton, NC Rest. operated by Lumbi Indians. It is just the way you described.
I make my cornbread with self rising cornmeal, buttermilk, eggs, and melted butter. If I'm out of buttermilk I use sour cream which makes it even better. I never use sugar or flour as I'm not making a cake and my wife is glutten intolerant. My cornbread tastes like the cornbread served at the Lizard's Thicket Rest. in Columbia.
I doubt that sugar was used in our ancestor's cornbread as sugar was not always that plentiful.I have a friend from up north who always eats his cornbread at the end of his meal- just like dessert.
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We did this a month ago on the home cooking board. As the initiator of the discussion the things I got out of the discussion were:
1. The South is mostly no sugar cornbread with the exception of the Mississippi sugar belt where they do add sugar.
2. Southern cornbread seems to be fine white cornmeal and no flour.
3. Southern cornbread requires bacon greese and a very hot cast iron pan.
4. North carolina was a mixed sugar/no sugar state.
Did I miss anything?
Link: http://www.curmudgeon.com
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As a native north stater I think my family encompasses two different styles nc of cornbread.
My dad - from notheastern nc makes fried corn bread. cornbread, milk occassionally onions fried in a pan. not sure if there are any other ingredients. he forms it into a flat cake slightly smaller than the palm of your hand.
not as dry as a hush puppy but wonderful with butter. usually served in our house with salmon cakes and collards.
My mom - from the hickory area always made cornbread muffins. yellow corn meal without sugar.
I still don't like most baked cornbread(though it's more palatable with jalapenos). Yet I love fried corn bread and hush puppies.
I always thought jiffy was for people who did not like cornbread. I love jiffy but is is not cornbread its dessert. sugar is the predominate flavor.
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I too grew up with the sweet Jiffy crap, and fell face-down into REAL cornbread when I moved to Nashville. Since I'm following my own tastebuds instead of defending any traditions, my cornbread is however I want it - usually yellow cornmeal, unless I have some stoneground unbolted white from somewhere, buttermilk, egg, NO sugar, soda, salt, usually no flour. If i wanna get really fancy I'll put in a mess of grated cheese, some chopped onion and chopped green chiles and a handful of powdered red chile, and a small can of creamed corn. Then, instead of just putting grease into the skillet, I'll chop up two or three rashers of good bacon and put them in there, and then put the pan into the oven set to preheat to 400º. When the bacon is just shy of burning I dump it and the grease into the batter, beat it up, pour it into the pan and put it in to bake for 18 minutes or so. Is good.
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Rasher? I've never heard that term. Meaning pieces?
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Main Entry: 1 rash·er
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: primarystressrashschwa(r), primarystressraash-, primarystressraish-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: perhaps from obsolete rash to cut, slash (from Middle English rashen, probably alteration of rasen) + -er -- more at RASE
: a thin slice of bacon or ham broiled or fried; also : a portion (as of bacon) consisting of several slices
Citation format for this entry:
"rasher." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (1 Feb. 2006).
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I've generally heard it used to mean portion, not a single slice.
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I found this from the "Word Dectective". Interesting.
http://www.word-detective.com/041400....
Dear Word Detective: In British cooking magazines I often see the term "rasher" of bacon. Just for curiosity (and convenience in recipe conversion), I've been trying to find out the meaning. I've talked to friends from Britain, and they say they've always used the term, but don't know the origin, or if it refers to a certain amount or type of bacon. The most logical origin we've guessed is that "rasher" came from times when meat was "rationed", e.g., wartime. I even asked a gourmet grocer in London via e-mail. They didn't know either. Can you set us straight? -- Chef E.J., via the internet.
That's very weird. I always assumed that everyone in England knew what a "rasher" of bacon was, since the term is far more common over there than here in the U.S. I first encountered the term as a teenager in the mid-1960s while reading a James Bond novel. Don't ask me why I remember this, but at one point author Ian Fleming had Bond consuming an enormous breakfast consisting of platoons of eggs, piles of toast, pots of coffee, and "several rashers" of bacon. Judging from the generally gluttonous tone of Fleming's description, I figured a "rasher" was probably equivalent to five pounds of bacon, maybe ten.
So it came as a bit of a surprise to learn years later that a "rasher" of bacon is simply what we Americans would call a "strip" of bacon. One puny little strip. So it takes at least five "rashers" to make a plausible bacon sandwich. I know I shouldn't let these things throw me, but I haven't felt the same about James Bond ever since. What a wuss. Probably a closet vegetarian.
To be fair to Bond, "rasher" is sometimes loosely used to mean "an order of bacon," presumably four or five strips. But strictly speaking, a "rasher" is a thin slice of bacon or ham, usually broiled or fried. The origin of "rasher" is uncertain, but it is probably related to the French "raser" (to cut or shave) which also gave us "raze" (to destroy or obliterate) and "razor."
I grew up in the plains and had never heard the term. Thanks.
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What a hoot!
Cornbread is like bbq, everyone's right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.
Usually it boils down to a "which is more original" discussion, which I haven't seen this thread turn into.
Corn was grown all over the Americas by native peoples and Europeans who colonized those areas all used it too. I would love to find a book or essay that discusses how and why the different styles developed the way they did. Anybody know of any?
I'm from immigrants that moved to NY and NJ.
We ate cornbread and it was not "sweetened" though it contained a little sugar. Personally I think it helps bring out the corn flavor. It also contained some wheat flour so the gluten could help with air retention. This is frequently derided for not being cornbread. Thppppppppt. They also made sweetened corn cake(with more flour), but that ain't cornbread.
My wife is a Texan. Most of her fambly buys their cornbread, cooking having died out of their gene pool two generations ago. The small amount they still cook isn't the dense, dry, flavorless boards that was eaten when I moved to GA as a child, but actually seems very similar to the northern stuff. Gotta love eggs and leavening.
Since then I have cooked it both ways, and both ways have their positive aspects. Unless I am eating a meal with plenty of juicy goodness, I am not going to make an unsweetened, barely leavened, cast iron batch. Though if I have something to sop, the greasy, crispy goodness is perfect. Somethings just go better with a lighter quick bread.
I have found that most southerners I know overcook their cornbread so it is dry and unpalatable, then bitch because some "yankees" don't understand.
I do understand. I understand that I'm probably eating the results of a society that has mostly lost its ability to cook. I'd bet generations ago, southrons knew how to not dry out their cornbread. I'd also bet that many Northrons have become accustomed to packaged mixes and their hyper-sweetened flavor.
Both styles cooked well are great. There is no one correct way.
(You should hear me rant about the great Thanksgiving 2005 Dressing debate. I hate cornbread dressing, but cooked it for her family and made some regular bread dressing for myself. You'da thougth I had made it with the blood of christian babies by the way they carried on about my little bread pan of abominations. Hah! I made them manhattans and that shut them up. Not really.)
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Mr. Smithers, I believe you are stirring the pot! Whenever someone, be they southern or not, reaches into their vocabulary bag and uses the word "southron," my "provocative statements ahead" radar goes crazy. That being said, I agree with most of what you wrote. Having grown up with two shools of cornbread, I enjoy both. I'm a southerner born and raised, but at the end of the day, it's my taste buds that make the final determination of what I consider to be good. However, I do take exception to your charecterization of the South as a society that has lost its ability to cook. Most southerners as well as many transplants to the area would argue that the South is probably the section of the country that is most in touch with its cooking traditions, especially the rural ones. This doesn't always translate into dishes that are pleasing to the average American. For example, the southern propensity to cook many vegetables until they are fall-apart tender (some might say mushy) is hard to get used to if you weren't raised with it (and though I was, I mostly prefer my veggies with some body left in them). This cooking style is a direct result of farm cooking when most everything was slow cooked all day on the stove while everyone worked in the fields. I know this first hand from my grandparents, tobacco farmers all their lives. So I strongly disagree with you on the picture you paint of southern cooking, though I do so in the good-natured spirit I took your comments in. :)
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