Giardinara
In the spirit of RST's "this thread is moving to far off the side of the page" I am continuing up here, a thread going on down there on giardinara.
Gary mentions that Carm's is the only place he knows that produces a "non-traditional" giardinara with its beef. By non-traditional, he means a giardinara not dominated by chopped sport peppers in cheap oil.
Now, Gary mentions Al's in the same post, and so he knows of at least one other "non-traditional" giardinara, Al's, dominated by chopped celery (or maybe fennel) and red pepper flakes.
Where else?
Ricobenes used to serve a strange kind of pepper that reminded almost in shape and taste of okra. Somehow, and it has been a while since I've even eaten there, I do not remember them still serving it.
Vital Information
Sep 25, 2002 11:34AM
Vital Info wrote:
By non-traditional, he means a giardinara not dominated by chopped sport peppers in cheap oil.
VI,
Actually, that is not what I meant by non-traditional. Traditional giardiniera, at least the Chicago beef stand giardiniera I am familiar with, is composed not only of sport peppers, but also celery (Mr. Beefs giardiniera has a high proportion of celery) the occasional bit of carrot and sometimes even a hint of olive. Depending on where the beef stand buys their giardiniera it may also contain pimento or cauliflower, though if they make it themselves, all bets are off, for example Carms.
If I remember correctly, and I may not, your favorite beef place, Johnnys, uses straight chopped sport peppers in oil for its giardiniera, this is different than the majority of beef stand giardiniera. I guess what I am saying is that there are certain ingredients that fall within the range of Chicago style giardiniera, but, IMHO, fresh fennel is not one of them, therefor the non-traditional comment in reference to its possible use.
This opens up an interesting, and Chicago-centric, topic for Chowhound research, beef stand giardiniera.
Enjoy,
Gary
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I'm partial to Fontano's giardinara. It seems fresher than most, with more pimentos and green olives. Jars are for sale at their spartan shops around town. Mortadella, provolone and tomatoes with hot giardinara and a little mayo: add it to the list!
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VI,
There seems to be quite a bit of latitude in Chicago beef sandwich giardiniera, of the two beef places that I have eaten recently, Mr. Beef and Maxs, both use very different giardiniera. Mr. Beef an oily combination of cut to equal size sport peppers and celery, with about a 2/1 ratio of pepper to celery. Maxs an oily (no such thing as a non-oily giardiniera) mix of sport peppers and celery, with about a 3 or 4/1 ratio of pepper to celery.
The above giardiniera may sound quite similar, but there is, as Zim pointed out and ReneG referenced in his Beef Post, a secret ingredient in Maxs giardiniera, paprika. When I first read ReneGs Beef post and saw that he referenced a red color, my first thought was pimento, which is often an ingredient in giardiniera, which I posted, I was wrong.
It had been a while since I had eaten at Maxs and immediately after I posted I started having second thoughts, so I thought what better for dinner tonight than broasted and beef from Maxs. I am now prepared to state unequivocally that Maxs secret ingredient is hot Hungarian style paprika.
I took a few pictures of Maxs giardiniera, which I posted to a web site, click on the image for full size.
Enjoy,
Gary
Link: http://www.sptsb.com/max.htm
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Gary, with no disrespect, I disagree. I believe that Max's, Johnnies and Mr. Beef all present giardinara within the same catagory. That is the catagory based primarily on chopped sport peppers. Sure, there may be differences between the proportion of sport peppers and other ingredients: celery, carrots, olives--or there may be an additional ingredient to the vegetable oil base, paprika, but all these giardinaras still get their primary kick from the sport peppers.
Now, there ARE other giardinaras out there who do not get their kick from sport peppers, and those are the ones that I would catagorize seperately. I mean Al's giardinara looks and tastes nothing like the above.
Think of one version as breeds of tigers and Al's as a lion, all giant cats, but...
Which still gets back to the original question, what are the variations of Chicago giardina--whether in Gary groupings or mine.
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Try the giardinara at Bari, it's an Italian deli/takeout/specialty store on west Grand with KILLER homemade giardinara, sausage, subs etc. I'm drooling right now thinking about it...and no, I don't work there!
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Bari uses jalepenos in lieu of the traditional sport peppers. IMO it doesn't taste like giardinara. It tastes like pickled jalepenos.
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Vital Info wrote:
{snip}
Which still gets back to the original question, what are the variations of Chicago giardina--whether in Gary groupings or mine.
VI,
I think we basically agree, sport peppers in oil are the key, with Carms chopped jalapeno and celery being an interesting variant. Though the problem with using sport peppers in oil as the basis is just how far do we carry the theme before its no longer giardiniera? Celery is, obviously, well within the parameters of Chicago beef stand giardiniera, as is a bit of olive, pimento, carrot, but in what proportions, where does the slippery (oily) slope of giardiniera Chicago style end?
For example, does the olive salad typically used in a New Orleans muffaletta qualify as giardiniera? Olive salad contains sport peppers in oil along with all the typical giardiniera ingredients, though in a completely different ratio than Chicago beef stand giardiniera.
I suggest that you, in your official capacity as Mayor of Chicago Chowhound, appoint an executive committee to, after exhaustive on-site research, issue a Giardiniera white paper. I would recommend RST and ReneG as cochairs. I volunteer to assist with on-site research as I am sure will any number of dedicated Chicago Chowhounds.
By the way, my original point was that fresh fennel, which I am sure would be a flavorful addition to giardiniera, would be considered a non-traditional addition to Chicago beef stand giardiniera.
Enjoy,
Gary
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When you guys are defining Chicago giardinara within a controlled denomination, would you consider bits of cauliflower acceptable?
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Jeff,
Personally, I would consider cauliflower as a Chicago beef stand giardiniera ingredient only if the pieces are very small and less than a few percent of total volume. Many of the commercial giardinieras contain cauliflower and, in the rest of the country where giardiniera typically refers to pickled vegetables, whole cauliflower florets are often included.
I would like to qualify something here, what started out as an off-hand comment about thin slices of fennel in Als giardiniera by Vital Info last Monday night at Continental has somehow led to he and I defining Chicago beef stand giardiniera.
I like Italian beef and I absolutely love giardiniera, but I dont expect the Giardiniera Council of America to be calling me up anytime soon to assist them with the legal definition of Chicago beef stand Giardiniera. Though, if it happens, as the fellow who hangs out at the Fullerton Kennedy off-ramps sign says, I will work for food, in this case Italian beef heavy on the giardiniera.
I ate lunch at Als yesterday even bought a $3 cup of giardiniera to take home, but damn if I can tell if they use fennel or celery. It could just be that the celery they use is more mature (allowed to grow longer and larger) and develops a slightly bitter note that we are mistaking for fennel. It is also really hard to tell with all the other spices, oils etc tossed in the mix. The other thought that I had was that fresh fennel is quite a bit more expensive than celery.
I guess I should commit one way or the other, ok, no fennel. IMHO Als on Taylor uses celery in their giardiniera, not thin slices of fresh fennel. Well, then again, maybe they use both. [Smile]
I took a picture of Als on Taylor Streets giardiniera, decided for yourselves.
Enjoy,
Gary
Link: http://www.sptsb.com/max.htm
Image: http://www.sptsb.com/Al%20on%20Taylor...
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Great photo. I never noticed how celery-heavy (or maybe fennel-heavy) Al's was. Now you've got me stopping by there after work.
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"hot Hungarian style paprika"
Yes! I don't know why I didn't see it before given that it's also a major taste component to the salami I prefer Bende's Hungarian salami with paprika.
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Are you SURE about the paprika? The giardinara at Novi's (Ogden & Oak Park Ave., Berwyn)always appeared to me to be an oily mix of the usual stuff, but the oil had a bright red hue. And, upon close inspection, one could discern good portion of flakes and seeds from (apparently standard & commercial) dried, crushed red chiles steeping around the bottom and throughout the stuff--which I thought would explain the color (as well as the extra kick of heat).
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Bruce,
Crushed red peppers in giardiniera sound tasty, but Maxs on Western uses hot Hungarian paprika, not crushed red pepper flakes and seeds. As far as if Im sure, yes, though there is a very slim chance that Maxs could be using finely ground red pepper powder.
Ok, you ask, how sure are you? I am sure enough to bet an Italian beef a day for a week. We will, obviously, start off with Maxs then Mr. Beef, Als on Taylor, Vittori's, Roma's, Johnnie's and one other, I can only think of six really good Italian beef stands at the moment. How about the place you mention for giardiniera, Novi, hows the Italian beef at Novi?
By the way, I posted pictures of Maxs giardiniera, no red pepper flakes or seeds are in evidence. Did you look at the pictures? I will repost the link
Enjoy,
Gary
Link: http://www.sptsb.com/max.htm
Image: http://www.sptsb.com/images/Max2.jpg
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Now Gary, I did not go back and read ReneG's italian beef post, but I can think of a few more better than average beef places off the top of my head:
- Buena Beef - If Johnnies was not also nearby, this would be the best "close" beef to the bungalow. Lousy sausage, but fine beef, and perhaps the best roll anywhere. Their giardinara has a strong green olive component.
- Boston BBQ - I think maybe Seth was meaning this very urban stand in the island of Chicago/Grand/Sacramento.
- Portillo's - I know, a bit Disney like, but a tasty sandwich nontheless
- Roseangelis - On the far sout side
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Base on something I had read on chi.eats I checked out jay's beef a while ago - I'd rate it solidly above average though nothing to make me give up my desire for johnnies or some of the others mentioned above.
As an aside I find the difference between a mediocre italian beef and a good one to be one of the wider gulfs there is, so I'm less likely to order a beef when I don't have a pretty good chance of getting agood one.
Jay's Drive-In
4418 N Narragansett Ave
(montrose & Narragansett)
Harwood Heights, IL
(708) 867-6733
giardiniera includes celery
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OF COURSE, I checked out the pictures; do you think I'm lazy? I have no quarrel with the liklihood that some places use paprika; my point simply is that some others, I think, may use dried & crushed hot pepper.
I would love to take up your gauntlet, but I am doing penitance in chowhound hell, some 300 miles away from Chicago in north central Wisconsin. (BTW, "Dairy state," my arse. Find me some butter up here as good as Clarendon Hills (out of 81st & Commercial, I think, in Chicago), or the imports from Poland at Bobaks. These cheese-heads around here would just as soon eat Parkay. And don't even get me started about the cheese, most of which is surplus grade, probably meant for military, welfare, or prison use. There are some artisenals. but these are few and far between. It's no wonder Wisconsin is getting its butt kicked by New York, New England, and (of all places) California in the cheese-making racket. I could go on about the lack or marketing, etc., but don't get me started.....)
Anyway, I digress. You'll just have to try the Novi's beef sandwich, which, the last time I sampled, was rather mediocre. Or you could just visit there, sneak around, perhaps order a hot dog or a Jack-in- the-Box style taco and inspect the little vats of giardinara at the eating counters. (If you get a beef sandwich to go, they give you (at extra cost?) tiny plastic containers of giardinara. Unless things have changed (and admittedly it has been awhile since I've visited), you'll find the flecks and seeds of red pepper--"It's in there."
You may also be treated, especially if you visit late at night, to the appetizing spectacle of Mr. Novi (or whoever the proprietor is--and I HOPE it's the proprietor) cleaning and oiling his short-barreled .38 in the food preparation area for the delight and entertainment of his customers.
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Getting ready to respond to the fedora'd one's Johnnie's hot dog post, I happened across a bit on Max's giardinara from the 1983 "Hot Dog Chicago" by Rich Bowen and Dick Fay.
THEY report that "the giardinara available in pots on the counter was laced with gobs of red pepper flakes"
Definative? Well, the ascertion is nearly 20 years old. Recipes can change. Plus, who knows how good their reporting was even back then, maybe they mistook red pepper flakes for paprika. Afterall, THEY do not include color picture.
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Tony's Beef on 72nd and Pulaski is also a great place. Everything is homemade
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You know the other day, I realized that there existed yet another variety of chicago giardina. It had been hiding in my fridge, awaiting the preparation of a salami sandwich. It is Freddy's giardinara "relish", and my jar is nearly empty.
Freddy's giardinara relish is regular giardina run through the food processor creating pieces of vegetable the size and consistency of KFC cole slaw (with salad oil replacing mayo as the binder). As you can imagine, it makes the perfect spread or even perhaps a topping for crackers, a truly Chicago canape.
Since I am without a digital camera, I cannot show a giardinara relish image, but it is another one open to interpretation. The little chunks are about evenly split between green - sport peppers; orange - carrots; and red - what? The taste is not as aggressive as others since the bits and pieces merge so effectively into a middle flavor.
As it has been mentioned on chowhound, not eveything at Freddy's equals the the awesome coolness of the place, so if you are there any cannot figure out what to buy, just get a jar of giardinara relish to expand your world of condiments.
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